Odd Gaps in Armor Piece/Material Table

[sdavies2720]

As I was going through the Armor Piece Table, there are a few gaps that look odd. Can anyone explain why there are no:

• Linen Pants/Trews
  Linen Hauberks
  Linen Coifs/Hoods
  Linen Helms
  Linen Coats
  Hard Leather Byrnie/Cuirass
  Scale Byrnie/Cuirass

I'm working from the assumption that if you can make something out of hard leather, you should be able to make it out of linen. And the Byrnie/Cuirass sounds like it could be made from almost anything.

Steve

 

[sdavies2720]

Anyone have a theory?
* Is this historical (No one ever made Linen trews even though they made soft leather and hard leather ones)
* Is there a practical problem with making these items (I can see this for Scale Byrnies -- maybe it's just not flexible enough, but why can you make a Hauberk and not a Byrnie? And the category is Byrnie/Cuirass, and I would think a Cuirass would be possible)
* Is there a game balance issue (Don't want everyone going adventuring in crisp linen suits)
* Mistake or oversight?

I'm working on a table to generate armor for treasure, and these all stood out as oddities. Any help would be appreciated!

Steve

 

[Dan True]

I think those location-names are just for flair... From a game system perspective, the important thing is that it covers the chest and abdomen, not whether it's a byrnie or a hauberk.

In addition, sometimes it simply is not appropriate to call an item by that name. For example you won't see a hard Leather byrnie, as a byrnie roughly translate to "mail" (byrnie is the old norse name for it I believe, nowadays we call ir brynje - so not much different).
The same goes for the Scale items.

The linen items should exists for all locations, but it's a matter of what you call them. For example I wouldn't call a linen chestpiece a Hauberk, but a Gambeson or an armour/armoured jacket.

- Dan

 

[sdavies2720]

I think those location-names are just for flair... From a game system perspective, the important thing is that it covers the chest and abdomen, not whether it's a byrnie or a hauberk.

In addition, sometimes it simply is not appropriate to call an item by that name. For example you won't see a hard Leather byrnie, as a byrnie roughly translate to "mail" (byrnie is the old norse name for it I believe, nowadays we call ir brynje - so not much different).
The same goes for the Scale items.

The linen items should exists for all locations, but it's a matter of what you call them. For example I wouldn't call a linen chestpiece a Hauberk, but a Gambeson or an armour/armoured jacket.

- Dan

Ok, that makes sense, sort of. I do understand that the terms are not precise, but I'm vexed by the hobgoblin that it doesn't look internally consistent: Why can you get a Scale Hauberk that covers Chest and Abdomen, but not a Scale Byrnie or Cuirass that just covers Chest? And why is Linen the opposite (you can get an item that covers Chest, but not Chest and Abdomen).

I could just generate an item that is "Scale Armor that covers Chest, Abdomen and Legs" but that has a lot less character than "Scale Hauberk and Greaves".

But there is no Linen item that will cover the head, no matter what you call it (No linen Coif/Hood nor Helm). That appears to be the only missed Hit Location/Armor Type in the core rules. A&E also adds "Enameled" armor which apparently also cannot protect the head...

So, maybe I really am wondering if there is a real-world reason for the drop-outs that are here. If not, I'll just figure out which items can be made out of soft versus hard armor (I think a previous RQ incarnation had this) and go forward with those matchings.

Steve

 

[Dan True]

I think those location-names are just for flair... From a game system perspective, the important thing is that it covers the chest and abdomen, not whether it's a byrnie or a hauberk.

In addition, sometimes it simply is not appropriate to call an item by that name. For example you won't see a hard Leather byrnie, as a byrnie roughly translate to "mail" (byrnie is the old norse name for it I believe, nowadays we call ir brynje - so not much different).
The same goes for the Scale items.

The linen items should exists for all locations, but it's a matter of what you call them. For example I wouldn't call a linen chestpiece a Hauberk, but a Gambeson or an armour/armoured jacket.

- Dan

Ok, that makes sense, sort of. I do understand that the terms are not precise, but I'm vexed by the hobgoblin that it doesn't look internally consistent: Why can you get a Scale Hauberk that covers Chest and Abdomen, but not a Scale Byrnie or Cuirass that just covers Chest? And why is Linen the opposite (you can get an item that covers Chest, but not Chest and Abdomen).

I could just generate an item that is "Scale Armor that covers Chest, Abdomen and Legs" but that has a lot less character than "Scale Hauberk and Greaves".

But there is no Linen item that will cover the head, no matter what you call it (No linen Coif/Hood nor Helm). That appears to be the only missed Hit Location/Armor Type in the core rules. A&E also adds "Enameled" armor which apparently also cannot protect the head...

So, maybe I really am wondering if there is a real-world reason for the drop-outs that are here. If not, I'll just figure out which items can be made out of soft versus hard armor (I think a previous RQ incarnation had this) and go forward with those matchings.

Steve

I don't think Linen and Lamellar makes much sense on the head. Lamellar is too rigid to be properly adapted to the head - and why do it when you can have a helmet? Linen could perhaps be applied to the head, but it would then be so thick, as to really hinder movement - and would make the head a much larger target.

But, remember that these are not rigid structures that you cannot bend. Of course you can ask a blacksmith to make you a mail shirt covering only the chest... if you wishes that (but why? if you can't afford it, take less expensive armour). But it is atypical.

- Dan

 

[sdavies2720]

I'll separate this into two posts.

Linen: So I gather it's pretty thick, doesn't bend well, and unlike metal cannot be made into a conforming shape. So that's why the core rules don't have Linen Pants/Trews, Hauberk, Coif/Hood, Helm, or Coat. In the real world these just don't work.

So Linen will be the only armor type in the core rules that cannot cover every hit location -- it has no item that will protect the head.

Do I have that right?

Steve

 

[sdavies2720]

Now for the rule internal consistency issue, regarding the mail:

This is a table consistency issue. I'm assuming here that when you say "Mail" which is the term mostly used in the real world, I should translate that into "Chainmail" in the book.

So, by MRQII, one can have a blacksmith make a mail shirt covering just the chest -- it would be in the "Byrnie/Cuirass" category. But you cannot have a blacksmith make you a "Scalemail" armor piece that covers just the chest, because that's 'not allowed.'

Unless there is a real-world reason that this should be, I'll add a houserule to allow armor pieces that just cover the Chest to be made out of Hard Leather and Scalemail. I think these are the only remaining items on the chart that look odd.

Steve

 

[Dan True]

I'll separate this into two posts.

Linen: So I gather it's pretty thick, doesn't bend well, and unlike metal cannot be made into a conforming shape. So that's why the core rules don't have Linen Pants/Trews, Hauberk, Coif/Hood, Helm, or Coat. In the real world these just don't work.

So Linen will be the only armor type in the core rules that cannot cover every hit location -- it has no item that will protect the head.

Do I have that right?

Steve

Yup.

So, by MRQII, one can have a blacksmith make a mail shirt covering just the chest -- it would be in the "Byrnie/Cuirass" category. But you cannot have a blacksmith make you a "Scalemail" armor piece that covers just the chest, because that's 'not allowed.'

Yes, you can ask a blacksmith to make a scale mail only covering the chest - but he'll look at you and say "why would you want that ... ? but whatever takes you fancy good sir".

As said, the categories mentioned in the book is just for giving people some proper names for the different area-types of armour. It is not an exhaustive list and shouldn't be taken that literally, as it's only flair.

- Dan

 

[sdavies2720]

Yes, you can ask a blacksmith to make a scale mail only covering the chest - but he'll look at you and say "why would you want that ... ? but whatever takes you fancy good sir".

As said, the categories mentioned in the book is just for giving people some proper names for the different area-types of armour. It is not an exhaustive list and shouldn't be taken that literally, as it's only flair.

- Dan

Last whack at the dead horse: What's your explanation for why the core rulebook doesn't list "Scalemail" as a possible type for Byrnie/Cuirass or for Breastplate, as these are the two styles of armor that cover just the chest?

Steve

 

[Dan True]

Last whack at the dead horse: What's your explanation for why the core rulebook doesn't list "Scalemail" as a possible type for Byrnie/Cuirass or for Breastplate, as these are the two styles of armor that cover just the chest?

Because of naming conventions. You wouldn't ever call a scale shirt a byrnie (as that implies mail), curiass (as that implies hardened leather or metal) or a breastplate (which implies plate)....
You can have scale armour that only covers the chest (though, why would you want to?) but it would still be a (short) scale shirt.

- Dan

 

[soltakss]

I'd just say that you can have every armour type in every location.

The ENC of the different fits of armour might be an issue, but it isn't that difficult to extrapolate rough ENCs based on the ENC of given types.

It depends on whether you want real world accuracy or not. I've never really been that interested in real world accuracy for this kind of thing, so for me having a suit of each type of armour with values for Hauberks, Trews and so on makes perfect sense.

 

[sdavies2720]

I'd just say that you can have every armour type in every location.

The ENC of the different fits of armour might be an issue, but it isn't that difficult to extrapolate rough ENCs based on the ENC of given types.

It depends on whether you want real world accuracy or not. I've never really been that interested in real world accuracy for this kind of thing, so for me having a suit of each type of armour with values for Hauberks, Trews and so on makes perfect sense.

I thought that real-world accuracy is, for a range of reasons, not a good pursuit in this case. But I was looking for
* rule book consistency: Give me a system of armor pieces that is internally consistent.
* Real-world plausible: Close enough to real terms and items that it passes a quick-read test (or is accurate enough without an hour-long terminology discussion). I recognize that one person's 'close enough' is another's 'wildly inaccurate' on things like this.

So I think I'm going to:
* Leave the Linen armor drop-outs as-is, unless someone wants to walk around looking like the Michelin man.
* Leave the platemail armor drop-outs as-is unless someone wants to walk around looking like the tin man.
* Use the armor piece names that are in the book, with the coverage they indicate.
* Allow all other armor type / piece combinations.

Thanks for sitting through my nattering on this!

Steve

 

[tarkhan bey]

I have never been happy about helmets in any edition of RQ.
I tend to operate them as follows.

1 AP - Leather Hood
2 AP- Boiled and shaped Leather helmet/Cap
3 AP- Composite Helmet(As above , but with metal banding, studs etc)
4 AP- Pot Helm
5 Ap- Reinforced Pot Helm(Nasal Bars,aventail,optical guards,combed etc.)
6 Ap- Full Helmet(Visored or Great Helm,Corinthian Hoplite etc)

Sorry about the slight divergence from the original question.

 

[sdavies2720]

I have never been happy about helmets in any edition of RQ.
I tend to operate them as follows.

1 AP - Leather Hood
2 AP- Boiled and shaped Leather helmet/Cap
3 AP- Composite Helmet(As above , but with metal banding, studs etc)
4 AP- Pot Helm
5 Ap- Reinforced Pot Helm(Nasal Bars,aventail,optical guards,combed etc.)
6 Ap- Full Helmet(Visored or Great Helm,Corinthian Hoplite etc)

Sorry about the slight divergence from the original question.

No worries -- I think this is on-point. If there is a better system that is simple, I'm open. So you're assuming no one would wear just a mail coif (for example)?

 

[tarkhan bey]

Sorry man, forgot to add in chain mail coif at 5AP.
I'm not so sure about coifs or hoods of other types except for the leather hood. Possibly Scale?

 

[Dan True]

Sorry man, forgot to add in chain mail coif at 5AP.
I'm not so sure about coifs or hoods of other types except for the leather hood. Possibly Scale?

Scale would probably be possible, but I have never heard of a historic example, and they wouldn't be very effective - the most important thing for a helmet is to stop the brute force, else you end up passing out anyway. And scale is made for stopping slashes, not for removing force. That is why most people used a metal helmet over their chain mail coif also... and assume something similar could be done with scale.
Early on, mettalurgy was advanced enough to create heltmets made of plate, even though they couldn't create plate armour - so the extra effort of creating scale is wasted on the head.

- Dan