Objections - Fate points/ Armor piercing

Nakraal

Mongoose
1. I don't feel like letting the pc's have fate points. Its like having "lives" in an arcade game or knowing that their "fate" is not to die until their have used them all. Its better maybe if the DM keeps track of the fate points of each player and use them for the players when he judges that the circumstance demand it. Players are never sure of if they have any fate points.

2. Why is not the AP rule as this: Defenders DR-Attackers AP=DR of the defender against the specific attacker (minimum 0).

eg. Char A has a DR 7 and Char B has an AP of 3.
7-3=4. For each damage roll when B succesfully attacks A subtract 4 points of damage.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Nakraal said:
1. I don't feel like letting the pc's have fate points. Its like having "lives" in an arcade game or knowing that their "fate" is not to die until their have used them all. Its better maybe if the DM keeps track of the fate points of each player and use them for the players when he judges that the circumstance demand it. Players are never sure of if they have any fate points.

Well it would also take away from the players using max damage and destiny rules for fate as well. And Fate points don't gurantee that the player will live I've seen a few die anyway despite using a fate point.

Nakraal said:
2. Why is not the AP rule as this: Defenders DR-Attackers AP=DR of the defender against the specific attacker (minimum 0).

eg. Char A has a DR 7 and Char B has an AP of 3.
7-3=4. For each damage roll when B succesfully attacks A subtract 4 points of damage.

Because you'd have weapons completely passing through armor like it's not there and would reduce the use of finesse.
 

urdinaran

Mongoose
I had a PC die due to massive damage by failing his FORT save; spending the initial Fate Point didn't save him. Also, if there is no one around to administer first aid within 1 hour, dead. So you see, they aren't like extra lives in a video game.
 
No fate points in a low magic world will mean very short campaigns due to death. There are no magical heals, wish, or raise dead spells. In addition, Conan uses the massive damage rule of >20 points of damage in a single blow = save vs. Fort or DIE. Pretty intense.

Another factor is the lack of Challenge Ratings. Will be some trial and error on your part so the fate points help smooth those little "Oops...I did not realize how tough that demon really was" :oops: .

Make sure you understand the Terror rules as well. Fate points will often be used to help make those saves since no one enjoys the whole party running away from that perfect climactic encounter that you stayed up all night long to destroy them! :twisted:

Fate points are needed unless your players don't mind rolling up new characters steadily.
 

argo

Mongoose
Nakraal said:
1. I don't feel like letting the pc's have fate points. Its like having "lives" in an arcade game or knowing that their "fate" is not to die until their have used them all. Its better maybe if the DM keeps track of the fate points of each player and use them for the players when he judges that the circumstance demand it. Players are never sure of if they have any fate points.
Fate points promote heroic gameplay. Players are more likely to face down overwhelming odds if they know they got a little "juice" in the bank for a rainy day.

Besides, as urdinaran pointed out you still need sommeone to patch you up after being Left For Dead. A TPK will very likely remain a TPK unless the GM pulls some deus ex. That ought to be enough to keep the players on their toes.

2. Why is not the AP rule as this: Defenders DR-Attackers AP=DR of the defender against the specific attacker (minimum 0).

eg. Char A has a DR 7 and Char B has an AP of 3.
7-3=4. For each damage roll when B succesfully attacks A subtract 4 points of damage.
Two reasons

1)Because the way the system works now an average Str NPC can take a weapon and be completly ineffective against a particular armor while the high Str PC can take that same weapon and beat the crap out of that opponent in the armor. Again, this is about the heroic gameplay that Conan embodies.
2)Because if it worked the way you suggest then you could bypass DR with AP. In other words you could bypass DR using Str as your prime stat. The Str/AP Dex/Finesse dichotomy is one of the central balancing mechanics in the game. If we implemented your suggestion Str would become a dominant stat.

Hope that helps.
 

Nakraal

Mongoose
I am not suggesting to cut fate points aber just to let the DM to know how many FP has a player and use them instead of the players.

If players don't know wether or not they have FPs then the fealing of security should vanish.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
I've never felt secure knowing I had fate points in Conan as a player. I've lost one character and nearly lost a second using fate points.

If the players don't know how many fate points they have how are they going to use destiny?

Is the DM going to use Destiny for them as well? How about the max damage ability?

If you want to take away the secuirty of fate points telly our players that getting them will be very rare. If players know that fate points are given often they will play more cautious to avoid using what they have.

I personally wouldn't play in a game that the DM controlled my fate points. I like to live and die by my choices not those the DM makes for me.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Dude we are talking about a game here. Fate Points are supposed to reflect the players control over the story. Some times it's by using the the left for dead after a fight they thought they could survive. Sometimes it's striking a mihty blow to kill the monster before it gets to far. And then destiny which allows them to shape a bit of the world around them.

You're right the charcaters don't know thier destinies, but the characters aren't sitting at the table playing the game. The players are the ones crafting thier characters with a goal in mind. If a player wants his destiney to be to go from barbarian to king and wants to use fate points to foreshadow this are you going to say no because his character doesn't know his goal.

If you want to use fate points your way that's fine. But I hope you have a very trusting group or good record keeping. Cause your idea seems rift with oppurtinities for the players to think the GM is screwing them.

I think it's kinda bad to have the DM control the fate of a player's character in a heavy fisted way such as this. Are you going to keep track of thier hit points as well since the charcaters never knows how many hit points he has? And I guess your going to roll all thier move silently, hide,etc. checks since the players shouldn't know if thier character succeds...
 

argo

Mongoose
Nakraal said:
If players don't know wether or not they have FPs then the fealing of security should vanish.
Which brings us back to my point about Heroic Gameplay.

The level of security felt by your PC's directly affects the gameplay. DnD, with its cheap 'n fast resurections, has an extremely high level of security and as a result most players in that game tend to be ready to jump into danger at the drop of a hat. Now in a game like, lets use shadowrun for example, in that game players have an extremely low level of security: death is quick painful and permanent, most players I know will gladly blenderize any enemy they feel is weaker than them and run like chickens from any foe they percieve to be stronger.

Now, Conan is a swords 'n sorcery game. The world is supposed to be dark, grim and bloody but the heroes (read: the PC's) are supposed to rise above it, standing tall on a heaped mound of their slain foes. Fate Points cut a middle line between security and stark terror. My players have generally been cautious about tiping their hand before combat, willing to avoid danger and even to flee it, but when the stakes are high enough or they are just in lousy mood they also don't hesitate to launch a full frontal assault. I believe their Fate Points are largely responsible for that behavior.

Hope that helps.
 

argo

Mongoose
Nakraal said:
Em..destiny is not for the player to be used. I cant use my destiny nor do I know it.
Yes it is for the PC's and the game is better for it.

Conan is a swords 'n sorcery game, unexpected twists of fate mid-plot are par for the course. In my experience the players are much more suited to inventing such twists than the GM, they give me suprises I run with it and give them suprises back. It makes the game better. "Destiny" is one of my favorite mechanics in the game ... I only wish my players would use it more often.

Later.
 

Jotenbjorn

Mongoose
conan is dangerous enough. the campaign i'm in has 2 characters who have survived to level 11. they have unfortunately gone through countless allies and another half dozen cohorts. i've seen characters die falling out of a nest, devoured by an living shadow with a golden heart, eaten by smilodons, crushed by ettins, speared by black kingdom warriors, decapitaded by gladiators, and god knows how many other gruesome ends. not one of them was saved by a fate point.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Nakraal said:
Ok, you have a point. Another question. Do you use fate points for your villains when the pcs go over them?

Not really, when I run a game I have a frame work of what I want to happen. As a DM I generally control the flow of the plot anyway since I'm writting the adventure. If I need a npc left for dead then he is. If I need a villian to get away then he will. As long as it's not too much railroading and it's vital to the overall story.
 
Nakraal said:
Em..destiny is not for the player to be used. I cant use my destiny nor do I know it.

Please....Everyone knows their destiny. Mine is to control all aspects of the known universe and rule it appropriately :twisted: .

Good explanation Foxworthy. The system is so good that sometimes we forget that it really is just a game. Have fun!

HLD
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
Thnaks, man I was just glad I could help.

Must of my grasp on understand fate points and destiney rule same from Buffy (Unisystem) and Burning Wheel. Back when i only played AD&D I would have thought Fate points were stupid due to magic and what not. But it's pure gold for a game with more of cinematic twist. Plus the fact that the players have amore active role in the world then deciding who lives and dies is nice. I wouldn't play d20 if it wasn't for Conan.
 

Valaryc

Mongoose
...and if somebody doesn't like the fate points you can assign a new "function" to them.

for example: "luck"

for 1 fate point you can reroll 1 d20 check

( i play other d20 systems like Star Wars or Judge Dredd...and there you can take the luck-feat...it's missing in conan so we changed it...and my players use their fate points mainly as "luck" instead of max damage or other things)

look at the conan stories....how often is he a lucky guy and his opponent misses or conan "makes his save" against whatever ? :)
 

Vincent791

Mongoose
The level of security felt by your PC's directly affects the gameplay. DnD, with its cheap 'n fast resurections, has an extremely high level of security and as a result most players in that game tend to be ready to jump into danger at the drop of a hat. Now in a game like, lets use shadowrun for example, in that game players have an extremely low level of security: death is quick painful and permanent, most players I know will gladly blenderize any enemy they feel is weaker than them and run like chickens from any foe they percieve to be stronger.

Now, Conan is a swords 'n sorcery game. The world is supposed to be dark, grim and bloody but the heroes (read: the PC's) are supposed to rise above it, standing tall on a heaped mound of their slain foes. Fate Points cut a middle line between security and stark terror. My players have generally been cautious about tiping their hand before combat, willing to avoid danger and even to flee it, but when the stakes are high enough or they are just in lousy mood they also don't hesitate to launch a full frontal assault. I believe their Fate Points are largely responsible for that behavior.

Argo that explanation of FP is the most accurate thing I've read today. Cheers!
 

slaughterj

Mongoose
urdinaran said:
I had a PC die due to massive damage by failing his FORT save; spending the initial Fate Point didn't save him. Also, if there is no one around to administer first aid within 1 hour, dead. So you see, they aren't like extra lives in a video game.

What? If a PC dies due to massive damage, the Fate Point will leave him for left for dead. Also, if you are lying around for an hour with no help, you still get a Fort save to stabilize.

Personally, I don't use that stuff. If you use a Fate Point after being reduced to -10 HP, via massive damage, or whatever, you are left for dead, and will *eventually* recover. Spending a Fate Point, a rare resource, and still dying isn't a very "heroic" way to go, so I dispense with that.
 
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