new rules - Vree (ideas seem to be needed!) Unsolicted

[Da Boss]

there does not seem to be any at present except reduction of guns on the Xeel which seems ok:

ideas are obviously needed: 8)

Telepathic co-ordination -
A flight of Vree fighters are incredibly difficult to destroy , dancing out of the way of enemy fighters and dodging weapon strikes that only other pilots can see.
If a Vree fighter flight has at least one one other Vree fighter flight within 4" it gains the Psychic Dodge ability (the same as PSi Corps Black Omega's)

Minds United (Special Action) CQ test 9
Although their telepathy is not normally powerful enough to effect other minds or generate the sort of power that can jam a Shadow Ship, it has been known for the Vree to combine wills on the mindscape.
A Vree Squadron may attempt this action in the movement phase but all must attempt to do so or none. For each successful test each ship gains the Psychic Crew Trait for the rest of the turn. The value is equal to 2+ the number of ships that have the new trait within the squadron. The trait can be removed as normal during the turn and is lost in the end phase regardless.

plus I still like my Extraction Beams

The Vree are able to abduct individuals or even small groups by using extraction beams – these are not designed for use in combat but on occasion they have been used in battle and have proved suprisingly effective.
Extraction Beams may only be used against ships or stations with the Immobile trait, that are Running Adrift or have not moved during the turn in which the Extraction Beam is used. These weapons do not inflict damage or critical hits, but cause crew loss as normal. Extraction Beams do not affect the Shadows, Vorlons or the Ancients in any way and do not affect ships with operating Shields or GEGs. Any Vree ship may exchange its Antimatter Cannon for Extraction Beams (these can also be reverted back to Antimatter Cannons in Campaigns for free in the Repairs and Reinforcements phase of the campaign turn).

Range 12,
Arc T
AD Equal to the AD of the Antimatter Cannons removed,
Special : Mini-Beam, Precise

just a few ideas?

 

[CZuschlag]

We are testing new things at this point, or replacing items for which we have recommended deletion. Unless a request is solicited from the Game Architect (Matt), I think this is OUT OF SCOPE.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm ok - I had changed the title as you posted as I realised it was a little presumptious.............however not sure it can do any harm?

I guess I will hear if it needs to be removed?

 

[katadder]

my idea was squadron telepathy -
if one ship in a squadron passes its CQ check for an SA any other ship in the squadron carrying out the same SA passes automatically.

also made a variant of the war level ship

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I really like Da Boss' ideas. Although that abduction beam seems a bit silly, the other two are great. Use them, Matt! USE THEM! :x

 

[Burger]

Like the extraction beams! (Seriously!)

They don't seem very good though. You gain MB and precise, but lose DD and SAP? Well mini-beam is worse than SAP unless you're up against interceptors. And DD is way better than precise, considering you can't do crits and don't do hull damage either!! I would say, make it Mini-beam, precise, triple damage. Or, make it so it can do crits, but they will always be crew crits (just roll 1d6 to see which crew crit).

 

[CZuschlag]

Strongly oppose.

My understanding is that P&P is NOT supposed to be like a electoral campaign where everyone gets giveaways. Some do get major help --- they need it. This means Abbai, Raiders, and Drazi in particular. There are some rebalances.

The rest get options that might be worth it, but often are not. Others are getting very small increases that only affecting small holes in the system (Mind Scream). The Vree are already a power race with what I consider an outright broken hull in the Xorr. Let's not get out of hand.

And this gets me to squadron telepathy. Strongly oppose. Between standard telepathy and scouts the Vree CAF enough as it is. I don't want to see trolling CAF rolls across disk fleets, where the Xaars (already hideously busted ships on their own) troll for CAF rolls to support the local Xaak or Z'Takk to autosucceed. Running Silent bonuses aren't any better, either.

Using Xaars for SA trolling is cheesier than using them for initiative sinks.

Extractions beams: Sure, you can. Not being able to use it against things that have moved is a SEVERE penalty (as years of running Dilgar Mass Drivers has shown me), so, if this is only available then on a 1-for-1 basis --- sure. Go ahead. It's a useful anti-base weapon, I suppose.

Psychic Crew for Vree: No way. It's the Xaar-horde again, with Psychic Crew 6 ripping 4 SA's away from some ships that need it.

Psychic Crew for Vree fighters: The Xeel is already a balance issue that we're tuning down, I don't see the need to bring that balance issue back up again. by giving it another clever trick.

 

[Da Boss]

Strongly oppose.

My understanding is that P&P is NOT supposed to be like a electoral campaign where everyone gets giveaways. Some do get major help --- they need it. This means Abbai, Raiders, and Drazi in particular. There are some rebalances..

I understood that Matt wanted a "cool" thing or two for all races? Hence my efforts - could be wrong !?

 

[Triggy]

Strongly oppose.

My understanding is that P&P is NOT supposed to be like a electoral campaign where everyone gets giveaways. Some do get major help --- they need it. This means Abbai, Raiders, and Drazi in particular. There are some rebalances..

I understood that Matt wanted a "cool" thing or two for all races? Hence my efforts - could be wrong !?

You're quite right.

I like the Extraction Beams rule, very characterful and as it can only be used on Adrift/Stationary targets then I don't see it as being overpowering. I may even suggest it keeps the full AD of the weapon rather than halving it. Then I may consider using it in games

 

[CZuschlag]

Cool is fine --- but I think it'll need to be a targetted cool, something that takes tactical skill to pull off or is a tricky/risky choice that comes with pluses and minuses.

A great example of this is the pak'ma'ra Plasma Web. It is, usually, an improvement, but it's not always obvious. You can get shot out of squadrons, thereby losing the ability. You lose access to critical hits and critical effects when you gain the Emine trait. You waste firepower combining a Heavy Plasma Cannon with a Plasma Cannon. Therefore, its use isn't always obvious. The only major issue with it is the "around the corner" shots that you get by lining an opponent up near the spine of your arcs, allowing you to fire your front guns directly at the target and your side guns to a point just a tiny bit away from the target --- you get to fire both front and half of your side guns that way.

It takes skill or planning (or an opponent mistake) to pull it off.

In terms of special actions, compare with Run Silent. What a risk-reward this one is for anyone but a Scout. Sure, you may want to keep that ship alive, and Stealth 4+ is nice, but is it worth it? What if you fail your roll? Your opponent makes the Stealth check?

So cool is fine. But it should be a trade, something that makes you wonder if what your paid for it was really a good choice. Not like "Cake or Death", where everyone just chooses "Cake".

 

[Foxmeister]

Not like "Cake or Death", where everyone just chooses "Cake".

What sort of cake? I don't like fruit cake!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

Strongly oppose.

My understanding is that P&P is NOT supposed to be like a electoral campaign where everyone gets giveaways. Some do get major help --- they need it. This means Abbai, Raiders, and Drazi in particular. There are some rebalances..

I understood that Matt wanted a "cool" thing or two for all races? Hence my efforts - could be wrong !?

You're quite right.

I like the Extraction Beams rule, very characterful and as it can only be used on Adrift/Stationary targets then I don't see it as being overpowering. I may even suggest it keeps the full AD of the weapon rather than halving it. Then I may consider using it in games

It should read the full AD -

AD Equal to the AD of the Antimatter Cannons removed

 

[katadder]

thing is with squadron telepathy, yes its good, but it has the drawback of having to out ships in squadrons and lose init sinks yet again. pretty much like the centauri hunting packs having squadrons is generally seen as a big disadvantage in CTA for most people. also theres plenty of people out there with e-mines can take advantage of squadroned targets.

 

[Da Boss]

Usually I find Centauri use Demos packs and then split them later in the game

The sheer advantage of having that much firepower in one go is usually effective enough given that you have enough maneuvability / other ships as In sinks (havens for example) and the Glorious Republic is usually on +3 Initiative or more so often fires first 8)

 

[Burger]

True, but demos has got nerfed and havens usefulness as init sink has got nerfed (small ships rule in document 03).

 

[CZuschlag]

About time, too. Good changes, all.

 

[katadder]

think the demos went too far. should have 7 or 8AD ion cannon otherwise next supplement people will be asking why the vorchan has more AD than the demos and wanting that lowered. and now people will only use vorchans. although I only ever used vorchans anyway as I prefer their more destructive power every turn (that and the fact i only roll 1,2 crits as a general rule)

 

[Ripple]

Having squadrons is not a penalty... having to few initiative sinks is. Not these really don't have a thing to do with one another.

The fleet which we used to demo the concept... (and it was not accepted locally to start with) was the often cited 5 Hyperion, 3 Olympus, 2 Oracle, 10 Hermes stack. All Hyps were a squadron and all Olympus were a squadron... but there was no shortage of sinks to be had.

Squadrons allow you to move the majority of your firepower late and shoot it first while retaining all the resilience of a swarm fleet to damage, crits and even AD loss, as you'll have more total AD with multiple ships.

Centauri have the excellent Kutai, still nice Haven and Corvans to sink long enough ot find good uses for a squadron or two... The Vree can do it even better, as their sinks can come with both better stealth/dodge and better guns with a turret arc.

Ripple

oh... like the extraction beams... fun and flavory

 

[Ripple]

katadder - when they ask why the Demos has few point at the interceptor and say that there... the other guns are about balanced, so they had to pay for the interceptor somewhere.

I doubt this ends the career of the demos.

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

Hardly! I'll still get the Demos at 6 AD, I just have to try to leverage its bombardment capability in a more clever manner. Now its a quick, nimble flank bomber --- and that's cool. No other ship like it in the game.