More RQ Questions

[Dano_13]

Hi there

Here are some more RQ questions that I am hoping will spur some discussion

1) Cold damage - I don't understand how this damage can be applied in the same way fire damage is. Yes, I can see how sticking my hand in a campfire will cause 1d6 damage. I don't see how sticking my hand in ocean waves will cause the same amount of damage. Even if we were talking about a frozen ocean, there are crazy people in RL (Polar bear clubs) that jump into freezing waters for a few minutes and seem fine.

2) On evading skill - it says that combat manoeuvres still apply in the opposed roll. I can see how that applies for the attacker, but not for the defender (especially against a ranged attack). I assume they can only pick the few CMs that make sense (regain feet etc).

Also - what happens in an evade if all parties fail their rolls?

3) For multiple opponents, what happens if all parties fail their rolls? Also, I am having trouble visualizing the story description here. Suppose the PCs are attacking an evil elf lord. So they all rush him. The elf lord uses his evade against all PCs and beats them all. So ... what happens to the remaining CAs that PCs might have? Do they lose them? Or do they just know-somehow that trying to attack the lord this round will result in wasted actions. This seems to be what the rules are saying, but I don't know what to tell players who want to know how they suddenly have such prognostication.


Thanks in advance
Dan

 

[Dan True]

Hi there

Here are some more RQ questions that I am hoping will spur some discussion

1) Cold damage - I don't understand how this damage can be applied in the same way fire damage is. Yes, I can see how sticking my hand in a campfire will cause 1d6 damage. I don't see how sticking my hand in ocean waves will cause the same amount of damage. Even if we were talking about a frozen ocean, there are crazy people in RL (Polar bear clubs) that jump into freezing waters for a few minutes and seem fine.

The damage is a bit extreme yes. I believe it is simply to avoid having to nearly identical tables, so they allow the gm to make the best judgement and only use damage in extreme situations. In case of a Viking taking a swim in 3-degree warm you would perhaps only apply the damage every minute instead of combat round.

If you only use them in extreme situations however, they seems applicable - say, 1d4 dmg every round for diving into a hole in the ice to get a friend out - you really don't last long in water that cold.

You should also remember that the damage may not be immediate. The winter bather guys have a warm clubhouse right beside them (mostly at least). The average adventurer taking a bath in a frozen pond have not. The damage may not come from the water itself, but instead from the long term freezing of his body after he gets out and has to run around in wet gear.
It could also represent muscle cooldown. So instead of looking at it as regular damage that ruins the body, you look at it as the cause of your muscles acting up and going into cramps (if you suffer a serious or major wound from the cold).

2) On evading skill - it says that combat manoeuvres still apply in the opposed roll. I can see how that applies for the attacker, but not for the defender (especially against a ranged attack). I assume they can only pick the few CMs that make sense (regain feet etc).

Yep, also remember that they cannot attack on their next CA - so an defender who just evaded can't take Ripost for example.

Also - what happens in an evade if all parties fail their rolls?

They stumble around, looking rather silly and inkompetent. The defender fails to dodge a blow that fails to connect.

3) For multiple opponents, what happens if all parties fail their rolls? Also, I am having trouble visualizing the story description here. Suppose the PCs are attacking an evil elf lord. So they all rush him. The elf lord uses his evade against all PCs and beats them all. So ... what happens to the remaining CAs that PCs might have? Do they lose them? Or do they just know-somehow that trying to attack the lord this round will result in wasted actions. This seems to be what the rules are saying, but I don't know what to tell players who want to know how they suddenly have such prognostication.

Well, he will have to use a CA to dodge every single one of the attacks. So if you have four players, they will each rush him on their own turn.

Player1: I rush
GM: He evades
Player2: I rush
GM: He evades
Player3: I rush
GM: He evades
Player4: I rush
GM: He evades
(of course you should give a better explanation. You can say he is lighting fast and weaves in between their dashing blades with ease...)

Most likely he is now our of CAs, and so cannot evade any more this round, while all the players still have the rest of their CAs left. That's the bad thing about being one person vs. 4.
If you wanna "boot him up" to be able to handle a party single handedly, you need to give him enough INT+DEX, magical enhancmenet so that he can act at least 5 times each turn - or enough armour/magical protection that he won't care if he is hit... And of course he should make good use of the outmanoeuvre option.
Or some spells to get away and blast them with. Plus a few more options.

- Dan

 

[Faelan Niall]

For your third question, to clarify, your Elf Lord appears to be using a Combat Action to outmaneuver your party of PC's. If they all fail he essentially maneuvers in such a manner as to be able to confront a single player without engaging the others. They don't lose their CA's per se, but they cannot attack him as any time they draw a bead on him or think they will be able to get a swing on him their friend gets in the way. If he does not outmaneuver them it becomes a simple case of who has more CA's and he will die a gruesome death.

 

[Dano_13]

Yes - I am referring to the rules regarding multiple opponents. I guess I am puzzled because it allows me to make a roll on my current CA that doesn't modify opponents rolls, but rather absolutely constrains what they can do, no matter what they decide or how the future unfolds. A person that blew the opposed evade roll can't attack the target, even if he were subject of a spell that increased all of his rolls by 200% after that evade CA.

So if three of us are trying to engage the Elf Lord and I blow my evade roll, I tell the GM:

Me: I am going to attack the Elf
GM: You can't
Me: Why not?
GM: Because your comrades are in the way.
Me: Fine, I have 2 remaining CAs, so I will move around them and attack from behind.
GM: You can't
Me: Why not?
GM: Um ... because you see with 100% certainty that by the time you get there they will be in the way
Me: Wait a second - I can't tell what will happen when I swing a sword, but I can see with absolute certainty what is going to happen in a dynamic system with three free willed actors (not including myself) within 2 CAs?
GM: Umm ... yes.

How are others interpreting or modifying this rule?

Other questions

If a PC is trying to get a deal from a merchant, would they use Influence or Commerce?

 

[Faelan Niall]

In all seriousness you should check out some videos of Aikido demonstrations to get a feel for what it is (they are just the easiest to find). The Evade to Outmaneuver is not an immediate effect it is in essence a combat action which takes and lasts an entire round. It is quite reasonable particularly with the fatigue rule in place. Staying away from your enemies ally is a joke when you have your enemy engaged. Succeeding indicates that he is controlling the situation. If you both succeed well then he is not as good as he thinks he is and just wasted a combat action, while you have all yours left. If he does however cause everyone to fail because he is such a bad ass, you should probably be doing everything you can to lead him to a position where his movement is restricted, or you and your friends should engage in the time honored action of retreat. Evade to Outmaneuver is a pretty risky maneuver because: 1)If everyone is better than you you will likely fail, be down one CA in an already untenable position, 2)If everyone is equal you are still likely to be fighting multiple opponents, 3)If you are better you burn one CA and still have to deal with one attacker who just might get lucky, all the while you are getting more and more tired, eventually you will slip.

 

[PhilHibbs]

3) For multiple opponents, what happens if all parties fail their rolls? Also, I am having trouble visualizing the story description here. Suppose the PCs are attacking an evil elf lord. So they all rush him. The elf lord uses his evade against all PCs and beats them all. So ... what happens to the remaining CAs that PCs might have? Do they lose them? Or do they just know-somehow that trying to attack the lord this round will result in wasted actions. This seems to be what the rules are saying, but I don't know what to tell players who want to know how they suddenly have such prognostication.

Well, he will have to use a CA to dodge every single one of the attacks. So if you have four players, they will each rush him on their own turn.

I think the OP is talking about the elf winning initative and choosing Outmanoeuvre as an action. This prevents anyone who he beats with his Evade roll from attacking during that combat round - and I think most people are assuming that the evading elf can't attack them either although it doesn't say this in the rules. I think it only affects close combat though so the elf could have jumped up a tree and be ready to shoot them, or they could also throw/shoot or cast spells.

 

[Faelan Niall]

I think the OP is talking about the elf winning initative and choosing Outmanoeuvre as an action. This prevents anyone who he beats with his Evade roll from attacking during that combat round - and I think most people are assuming that the evading elf can't attack them either although it doesn't say this in the rules. I think it only affects close combat though so the elf could have jumped up a tree and be ready to shoot them, or they could also throw/shoot or cast spells.

By the book it makes no mention of ranged or close combat. Personally I have no problem visualizing how it would effect both. Once again though if you are running it without the fatigue rule in place I could see how it would get a little too over the top cinematic for most games.

 

[Dan True]

Yes - I am referring to the rules regarding multiple opponents. I guess I am puzzled because it allows me to make a roll on my current CA that doesn't modify opponents rolls, but rather absolutely constrains what they can do, no matter what they decide or how the future unfolds. A person that blew the opposed evade roll can't attack the target, even if he were subject of a spell that increased all of his rolls by 200% after that evade CA.

So if three of us are trying to engage the Elf Lord and I blow my evade roll, I tell the GM:

Me: I am going to attack the Elf
GM: You can't
Me: Why not?
GM: Because your comrades are in the way.
Me: Fine, I have 2 remaining CAs, so I will move around them and attack from behind.
GM: You can't
Me: Why not?
GM: Um ... because you see with 100% certainty that by the time you get there they will be in the way
Me: Wait a second - I can't tell what will happen when I swing a sword, but I can see with absolute certainty what is going to happen in a dynamic system with three free willed actors (not including myself) within 2 CAs?
GM: Umm ... yes.

How are others interpreting or modifying this rule?

Other questions

If a PC is trying to get a deal from a merchant, would they use Influence or Commerce?

Try this:

Player1: I am going to attack the elf.
GM: Fine, roll the hit.
Player1: A success
GM (without rolling further dice - or maybe rolling some to confuse the players as to what the elf lord is doing): He steps to the side, and ruins your hit by placing player2 between you.
Player2: I then dart to the side, trying to get to the other side of the elf.
GM: Sure, you end up on each side of him.
Player1: Okay, now that player2 is out of the way I hit him again.
GM (rolls some dice): He lounges back when you are about to strike, forcing you to move forward to connect. When you finally strike he's made a dive roll under a table, and you only barely avoid hitting player2 because you've moved so close.
... and so on. Remember to use the surroundings in true swashbuckling style - the elf should roll under tables, kick over chairs, take a step dance around the fireplace, swing in the chandelier ... whatever fits your style and campaign.

One way you can think of the action to be interpreted in game terms over various rounds, is that the outmanoeuvre action allows the person to combine evade and small moves. This way you can explain how he does it, by him evading the attack and then taking steps of 1-2 meter to put himself in irritating positions - we merely only roll 1 evade per enemy, else this kind of manoeuvre would be very improbably to succeed.

3) For multiple opponents, what happens if all parties fail their rolls? Also, I am having trouble visualizing the story description here. Suppose the PCs are attacking an evil elf lord. So they all rush him. The elf lord uses his evade against all PCs and beats them all. So ... what happens to the remaining CAs that PCs might have? Do they lose them? Or do they just know-somehow that trying to attack the lord this round will result in wasted actions. This seems to be what the rules are saying, but I don't know what to tell players who want to know how they suddenly have such prognostication.

Well, he will have to use a CA to dodge every single one of the attacks. So if you have four players, they will each rush him on their own turn.

I think the OP is talking about the elf winning initative and choosing Outmanoeuvre as an action. This prevents anyone who he beats with his Evade roll from attacking during that combat round - and I think most people are assuming that the evading elf can't attack them either although it doesn't say this in the rules. I think it only affects close combat though so the elf could have jumped up a tree and be ready to shoot them, or they could also throw/shoot or cast spells.

Yeah, I can see that now

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I think the OP is talking about the elf winning initative and choosing Outmanoeuvre as an action. This prevents anyone who he beats with his Evade roll from attacking during that combat round - and I think most people are assuming that the evading elf can't attack them either although it doesn't say this in the rules. I think it only affects close combat though so the elf could have jumped up a tree and be ready to shoot them, or they could also throw/shoot or cast spells.

I think last time we discussed this, the consensus was that if the elf were to attack one of the outmanoeuvred people, that would immediately free them up to attack back...

If anything the manoeuvre is biased in favour of the victims. In an actual combat situation they would not immediately realise they couldn't usefully attack, and would likely fritter away their remaining CA's trying to get a clean shot, rather than being able to use them for other things (like casting spells)

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I think last time we discussed this

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45900

 

[Mongoose Pete]

anything the manoeuvre is biased in favour of the victims. In an actual combat situation they would not immediately realise they couldn't usefully attack, and would likely fritter away their remaining CA's trying to get a clean shot, rather than being able to use them for other things (like casting spells)

Precisely. Most attackers in that situation run themselves ragged trying to open up a clear line of attack. Its one of the dangers of combat in that once you've made the decision to 'hit that bugger' your whole focus and attention close down on achieving that objective. Before you know it, you've either exhausted yourself or been hit by some other threat you weren't paying attention to.

I find trying to teach people to fight hand to hand and still maintain situational awareness is very difficult. When the adrenalin starts to pump most fighters turn into mindless whippets with a rabbit in their sights. :wink:

Edit: Faelan can you post a link to an Aikido demonstration for the OP? I don't have a movie of doing this in armed combat. Here's a link to a man doing this in an instinctive way by just giving ground. Its a poor example since you can be much more technical than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-kw...ndex?qid=20100422135226AAnuFrB&has_verified=1

 

[Faelan Niall]

Here are a couple.

This one is a basic lesson format showing the basics of what the Evade Outmaneuver is intended to do. None of these will include environmental aspects, such as tables, chairs, rugs, tapestries, etc. they are all done in a classroom/sterile environment, and they still work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNRbA-C_vy8

This one starts off with the teacher grappled by four individuals. The end result is him tossing around rag dolls, who are consistently getting into each others way because he keeps cutting off lines of attack and reducing the number of opponents he faces at any one time to one person, who promptly becomes the next obstacle. Circles within circles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk9DTiyPtmo

This one ain't bad, but could easily be seen as a point where he two attackers made their skill roll. He always faces one attacker keeping his chances of survival until a couple seconds in you see someone has a free attack on him. This is a case of too many in too small a space. Oh snap! The rule covers that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5BLIuxi6uU&feature=related

The other part of the maneuver is that if you run away from people guess what happens, the fastest one keeps up with you the rest get strung out, then you face a string of fighters and you might as well be guarding a doorway, except you have more options for escape.

Hope that helps. As to ranged attacks, good luck hitting what you want in any situation where there is that much movement in a space, and you care about not hitting your friend. You might randomly hit what you want that is about it.

 

[Faelan Niall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-kw...ndex?qid=20100422135226AAnuFrB&has_verified=1

Nice one MP. I have not seen that one before, but a great example because of it being a linear example with environmental aspects, such as cars, people not involved, and other street obstacles. Also the tunnel vision of the atttackers is obvious, like a herd of sheep.

 

[cerebro]

Is one of those things to emulate cinematic fighting. I see no problem with it at all. Is a system to emulate real life. Is never going to cover every situation.

I see it as an opponent that is leaving no openings to attacks by putting the others in the way. Any way,is not like the elf won. He still would have to fight one player that round. And eventually he will miss the evade.

Also we are talking about 6 seconds here,including the evade action. So I don't see it as other having to "wait".

 

[Dano_13]

Hey Dan True - yes - I see what you are saying, and I can see how that rule works without miniatures, and when its the PCs acting against NPCs, but I can see how there would be frustration from PCs - when they rightfully ask - "How is he avoiding me without expending any CAs?".

That's fine - I just wanted to explore this rule before making a decision to mod it or not. I like the ability of a character doing something to avoid being swamped by a mob - I just don't like the asymmetry that comes from one actor making a skill roll that completely prevents another actor from performing certain future actions. It doesn't seem to jive with the other rules - but then I guess I could be kind of a rule fetishist.

Anyway - thanks for all the great discussion everyone!

 

[cerebro]

Here are a couple.

This one is a basic lesson format showing the basics of what the Evade Outmaneuver is intended to do. None of these will include environmental aspects, such as tables, chairs, rugs, tapestries, etc. they are all done in a classroom/sterile environment, and they still work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNRbA-C_vy8

This one starts off with the teacher grappled by four individuals. The end result is him tossing around rag dolls, who are consistently getting into each others way because he keeps cutting off lines of attack and reducing the number of opponents he faces at any one time to one person, who promptly becomes the next obstacle. Circles within circles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk9DTiyPtmo

This one ain't bad, but could easily be seen as a point where he two attackers made their skill roll. He always faces one attacker keeping his chances of survival until a couple seconds in you see someone has a free attack on him. This is a case of too many in too small a space. Oh snap! The rule covers that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5BLIuxi6uU&feature=related

The other part of the maneuver is that if you run away from people guess what happens, the fastest one keeps up with you the rest get strung out, then you face a string of fighters and you might as well be guarding a doorway, except you have more options for escape.

Hope that helps. As to ranged attacks, good luck hitting what you want in any situation where there is that much movement in a space, and you care about not hitting your friend. You might randomly hit what you want that is about it.

Oh, come on guys. The only martial art demostration were the teacher does not need to be present is Aikido.

 

[Faelan Niall]

Oh, come on guys. The only martial art demostration were the teacher does not need to be present is Aikido.

I am assuming you are being sarcastic, otherwise I have plenty of friends who would be more than willing to show you the error of your statement.