Mongoose's Reputation for poor Editing

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Sooooo, I've just come across this reddit thread. I hate being reminded of how shoddy the editing / reviewing is for call Mongoose products.


I'm always very frustrated / sad that Mongoose justifiably has this seemingly widely recognised reputation. You keeping saying you're making efforts to review your products, yet you persistently fall short. So I've got to ask, are you actually making plans to bring up your game? Reverse your reputation on this? Are you actually performing any root cause analysis or lessons learnt to genuinely improve your systems and processes which manage the quality and consistency of your products?

And regarding the thread I linked - I suspect the Vehicle Handbook 2023/2024 update is in the works. Dare we hope for these discrepancies to be corrected in that? Or are we fooling ourselves with hope?
 
I offered my assistance for free a few months ago. I never even got a reply. Pity, as I edit theses and novels as part of my job. (I tend not to care about my writing on forums, so don't pull me up on anything here :p. )
There is a chap on here who is exemplary at finding errors. As far as I saw, he never got a word of thanks. I don't think Mongoose realise what dedicated fans they have.
 
You keeping saying you're making efforts to review your products, yet you persistently fall short.
But do we?

There is not a short answer to this one, so please bear with me.

From the outset, let me first say that we chase perfection but do not expect to reach it - putting RPG books together is not a simple process as there are a lot of moving parts, limited hands to work on them, and it is a very human process. Of course we won't have perfection, we are only human.

That said, we are constantly adjusting what we do and how we do it. I'll give you an example...

The World Builder's Handbook is coming out this week. We have spent quite some time on this one, and it has gone through several stages:

  1. We chose a well-known Traveller writer with a reputation for getting into the weeds and with the right background knowledge to write the original manuscript.
  2. The manuscript is completed and handed in. An editor goes through it with a fine toothcomb, using both their own skills and computer-based aids.
  3. The book is laid out and, once all the text is in and art decided upon, it gets sent back to the writer. This may happen several times as, once laid out, any errors and mistakes tend to be easier to spot and it allows the writer to ask themselves 'wait, did I really mean that?'
  4. After this, the book gets sent to one or more dedicated stat-checkers/rules-breakers. If the book is more 'background/lore' based, it will also be going to the Traveller Inner Circle, a hand-picked group that serve as Mr Miller's court of what should and should not be in Traveller.
  5. The book then gets sent to a qualified outside proofreader.
As you can see, things are quite thorough. Does this mean I expect the World Builder's Handbook to be perfect upon release? I would be amazed if some issues did not surface, as it is a big and complex book (seriously, this one is a heavyweight), but there are limits to what our team can do and it is in the nature of RPGs to constantly push against those limits.

Now, we have in the past gathered books from several other games publishers, and assessed their error rates. We know who the big offenders in the RPG space are, and we are not even in the running :) It is also worth pointing out that there are games companies with much, much larger teams who are able to generate some impressive error lists of their own - ask a group of 40k players what they think of their rules set on any given edition (not ragging on GW, I personally love what they do, but I think they are big enough and tough enough that they aren't going to care much what I say...).

Part of the issue, I believe, is that gaming books (especially RPGs) are extremely diverse - the average RPG book has elements of descriptive prose, technical writing and fiction, often all on the same page. In the ideal world, we would get specialists to focus on each of those areas with someone co-ordinating all three. The reality is that one person needs to be able to handle them together. Just ramming text through Grammarly is not the solution, though we are keeping a very close eye on AI-based editing tools and their development.

What is clearly important is how things are handled when issues do arise, and I would hope that people can see we have improved vastly on that front over the years. The recent alterations on the Core Rulebook would be an example of that, as would Trailing Frontier.

I hope this makes the process a bit clearer and demonstrates that we are not sitting on our laurels. We are forever making little tweaks to the system.
 
Matt you may want to borrow an idea from The Onyx Path. They use a standardized online form whenever they submit their pdfs to the public. It stops the forums from being clogged with corrections by helpful forumites and helps categorize what the errors are.
 
It took me less than a minute to spot the most glaring errors that were in the deluxe Traveller Core Rulebook 2022 update. A book that cost rather a lot of money should not have contained missing tables.

It took months to get across the very simple idea - release the pdf for pre-orders at least a couple of months before it goes to print. There are rather a lot of us who pre-order, and you get free feedback. :)

Things have improved a lot since you started doing this, but here is step 2 -
have a dedicated forum/thread for error checking and make sure the book author and or someone at Mongoose HQ looks at it every day.

You could even go back through old threads and invite the people who provide the most useful feedback to a closed forum to avoid !noise" - give them a credit in the book :)

Oh, and the secret squirrel squad/inner circle has to
read up on every version of Traveller and the different official settings, read T5, read MWM's novel and short stories, listen to his interviews/podcasts
leave their personal bias at the door
actually read and canon check MgT Third Imperium supplements.
 
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It took months to get across the very simple idea - release the pdf for pre-orders at least a couple of months before it goes to print.

have a dedicated forum/thread for error checking and make sure the book author and or someone at Mongoose HQ looks at it every day.
We had actually been doing the pre-order thing for a good few years before Update 2022 - that was the one book it did not happen on, for distribution reasons, but we have since avoided those.

As for the dedicated forum idea - I like it! If you scroll up a tad on the forums, you will now see a new place for Feedback.
 
Matt and his crew strive for perfection, and will continue to improve their craft. Having worked with them on several projects, I can say they are a delightful and hardworking bunch. If I may add to what Matt said, in the published product, you see the errors that we miss, but you don't see all of the improvements and fixes that we did make. Yes, errors get through, but painstaking efforts are made to prevent that.

For example, I was the writer of High Guard 2022, and had the aid of a group of experienced Traveller contributors when authoring the book. I thought we had submitted a tight manuscript, but after it came out, we caught...well...many errors and required fixes. I was on vacation in Mexico at the time and spent multiple days in our AirBnB (much to the consternation of my family) making fixes because I felt like Traveller fans deserved to have the best possible product, as fast as possible. Matt's team was in constant contact with me despite the time zone differences, and patiently went through multiple (unseen) fixed drafts with me before submitting an update to its purchasers. So the effort is there! We just have to keep improving.

I know that Matt and the editorial team take the complaints seriously and will continue to strive to create high-quality products. Hopefully you will see that as we move forward. And yes, Geir's books are dense and challenging! Writers like Geir don't grow on trees, especially not in the RPG biz, so I'm sure Matt is happy to have him!
 
And yes, Geir's books are dense and challenging! Writers like Geir don't grow on tree
People have called me dense and challenging. People have also said I hang out in trees. (Yes, I know that's not what he said).
WBH is pretty dense, though. That's what I wanted and I hope that's what other people wanted. Best to chew thoroughly before swallowing.

As for errors, Chris is a particularly clean writer. Me not so much, so I'm sure I'm a pain to edit, what with my OverCapitalisation, Long sentences, and Passive-Aggressive insistence on the Oxford Comma (hey, Oxford is in England, right? So why not.)
 
My 10c worth is that things have got a lot better recently. The alien books felt like the nadir of editing. They were/are in a very poor state.
 
Things are better, but I know several people who have found errors and have told Mongoose. Unfortunately, they seem to go into a black hole. I think that is what frustrates customers. In this day and age, it shouldn't be that difficult to collate the errata and make it available to the fans.
 
I appreciate your detailed reply Matt.

It's not just the overall quality though, which you do appear to be taking seriously.

It's how errors that were previously corrected in one edition some how creep back into a newer edition. That suggests very poor product lifecycle & data management.
 
People have called me dense and challenging. People have also said I hang out in trees. (Yes, I know that's not what he said).
WBH is pretty dense, though. That's what I wanted and I hope that's what other people wanted. Best to chew thoroughly before swallowing.

As for errors, Chris is a particularly clean writer. Me not so much, so I'm sure I'm a pain to edit, what with my OverCapitalisation, Long sentences, and Passive-Aggressive insistence on the Oxford Comma (hey, Oxford is in England, right? So why not.)
As someone who edits your work, I appreciate the Oxford Comma!
 
Well at least in the past someone appears to have made them disappear. Or my cats spiked my coffee with something psychoactive and I imagined the whole thing.
I do remove them, but I also use them so I have to remove them from my writing, too. It's a fun game I play...
 
I do remove them, but I also use them so I have to remove them from my writing, too. It's a fun game I play...
:(
Why remove them? Using them is one of the lessons one of my favorite people, Kevin J. Anderson, drilled into my little writing head. (Notice, folks, I said, favorite person, not favorite writer - sorry, Kevin, if you're lurking here somewhere.)
 
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