Mongoose Open Gaming Content

[Arlaten]

When using your Open Gaming License, how much of the old RuneQuest or Basic Roleplaying material can I use?

Could I, for instance, legally copy a table (such as the resistance roll table) from RuneQuest 3 just by changing the order of one of the columns? Is that enough to be considered creative work? Could I copy the Strike Rank table, and use the rules for Strike Ranks from one of the previous versions without consent of the authors? Could I re-word the skill training section of RuneQuest a little bit, or just copy it directly out of the text. I was wondering how much of the old Basic Roleplaying copyrighted material belongs to you and how much of it can be used by authors or gamers under the Open Gaming License legally?

Additionally how much of the material from Glorantha can be used or changed and published as your own material?

How much credit needs to be given to original authors? Who wrote most of the RuneQuest 2 rules, who wrote most of the RuneQuest 3 rules, who wrote the material about Glorantha.

All of this (and probably more) should be made clear before authors start using your Open Gaming License the wrong way. I would certainly like to know what your license protects and what it doesn't protect.

 

[Arlaten]

Probably more to the point, can an author copy the old RuneQuest 2 rules or the old RuneQuest 3 rules or any portion of them, thereof, and publish them legally under your Open Gaming License?

If not, how much of the old rules could be copied legally? If they needed to be changed, how much would they need to be changed to be considered fair use material?

I am sure you can see what I am driving us. Some of us would like Classic RuneQuest with just a few changes (in the right places) to satisfy us.

 

[Arlaten]

driving at -guess I'd better proof-read these better.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Issaries clearly stated that no Glorantha materials can be considered Open Content. However, if you comply with the Issaries fan products policy, you can make your own visions available to the public. I think that Greg is not pleased by adaptations of Gloranthan third age materials to other systems than HeroQuest, but you'd better ask him about that.

The old RQ2/RQ3 rules are currently copyrighted by Chaosium which intends to publish a new version of them as Advanced Basic RolePlaying (aka the Oxymoron system ). I do not think it is legal to republish any of the old stuff. If you like the old system better than the current, nobody can prevent you from using it in your games, though. Or just wait for the new BRP to come out.

 

[soltakss]

Issaries clearly stated that no Glorantha materials can be considered Open Content. However, if you comply with the Issaries fan products policy, you can make your own visions available to the public. I think that Greg is not pleased by adaptations of Gloranthan third age materials to other systems than HeroQuest, but you'd better ask him about that.

If you're nice and ask properly, Issaries don't mind conversions to other systems, e.g. RQ, for web-based fan pages. So, I think that rules conversions should be OK, at least cult conversions had no problems. If you reprint myths and histories, then there might be problems.

Since GORE is Open Content and has a lot of things from old RQ2, you might be able to use GORE to do things.

 

[Voriof]

Issaries clearly stated that no Glorantha materials can be considered Open Content. However, if you comply with the Issaries fan products policy, you can make your own visions available to the public. I think that Greg is not pleased by adaptations of Gloranthan third age materials to other systems than HeroQuest, but you'd better ask him about that.

I am very sure that this is the case. And I suspect Rick Meints would also be somewhat concerned as he is the current licenseholder for Gloranthan 3rd Age material. The matter got discussed briefly at StellarCon 31 this weekend - a spendid little convention.

Jeff

P.S. Hi Kevin!

 

[Sinisalo]

You have also now told the world you are copying someone else's work even if you are obfuscating it. Doh!

 

[Sinisalo]

Oh and considering RQ "borrowed" STR DEX CON INT CHA they can hardly complain. As for resistance tables Warhammer uses them and they're still going.

People get confused thinking that because someone asserts their "rights" those rights are actually upheld by the law. If you agree to their assertion thats when it becomes a contract whether you sign anything or not. What I mean is you can't copyright the principle of a look up table. But certain arrangement of words and numbers on the page you can argue belong to you under certain circumstances. But then I'm no solicitor.

 

[RosenMcStern]

What I mean is you can't copyright the principle of a look up table.

But you can patent it, according to the US law. Ooops, sorry, according to how Microsoft's attorneys interpret the US law :roll:

Seriously, if someone develops a successful game mechanics, like the extended context or the resistance table, there is little he can do to prevent others from using it unless it can be covered by patent law. However, in the case of a whole game system or game world, where it is clear that you have "borrowed" a piece of someone else's intellectual property as large as a chapter or an entire book, then copyright laws may apply. And copyright laws are not subject to interpretation in any nation's court: the copyright holder is the final ruler.

Rule mechanics are another story. At present there are three game systems that use the d100 core mechanics: RQ, BRP and SPQR. Nobody seemed to complain so far.

 

[RosenMcStern]

I am very sure that this is the case. And I suspect Rick Meints would also be somewhat concerned as he is the current licenseholder for Gloranthan 3rd Age material. The matter got discussed briefly at StellarCon 31 this weekend - a spendid little convention.

Hmm, Greg should be at Tentacles in May, so the poor fellows who live on the wrong side of the Atlantic will have an opportunity to ask him.

BTW, this will be the first Tentacles after the release of MRQ. Any chance Mongoose gets somehow involved? And how many of the EU members of this forum will be there? I will.

 

[Voriof]

Rules and the like, I am not concerned about. What I was referring to was the use of Gloranthan content. That is fairly strictly licensed and falls under copyright law - as well as just good behavior in the community.

Jeff

 

[Loz]

I am very sure that this is the case. And I suspect Rick Meints would also be somewhat concerned as he is the current licenseholder for Gloranthan 3rd Age material. The matter got discussed briefly at StellarCon 31 this weekend - a spendid little convention.

Hmm, Greg should be at Tentacles in May, so the poor fellows who live on the wrong side of the Atlantic will have an opportunity to ask him.

BTW, this will be the first Tentacles after the release of MRQ. Any chance Mongoose gets somehow involved? And how many of the EU members of this forum will be there? I will.

I'll be there. I'm running some MRQ powered games. Others who post here that I know are definitely going are Simon Bray (Black Yinkin) and Darran Sims.

 

[Arlaten]

Okay, so, if I have it right, Mongoose only gained the right to use the word RuneQuest and the gameworld of Glorantha (for the second age).

They did not gain the right to use the rules BRP uses because those rules cannot be copyrighted. They are general rules that anyone could use. Mongoose could have chosen to use all of the RuneQuest 2 or 3 character creation, skill resolution, and combat ideas, but they didn't. They either thought their rules were better than the classic RQ rules or that they would appeal to a wider public.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Not exactly. The original text of the RQ2/3 rules, IIRC, is (c) Chaosium, as the exact text that one publishes _is_ his copyright, so you cannot copy it outright. Mongoose _could_ have produced something closer to old RQ without actually copying the original books, but chose to change many details while retaining much of the original system.

 

[Sinisalo]

And copyright laws are not subject to interpretation in any nation's court: the copyright holder is the final ruler.

I don't know about that. In Britain the courts would feel that they are the final arbiter especially if it is felt that your breaking the law was ambiguous. After all the courts are there to settle disputes.

Telling the whole internet you are reverse engineering someone elses "intellectual property" is probably a no no if it came to court, though.

If I was writing (or creating) anything I wouldn't copy anyone's stuff. Ever. However if it was a shared endeavour and I had permission I might if it was absolutely necessary. Even then I would write everything in my own words as is expected by any intellectual standards. And I repeat I would get permission.

What I was saying was that some people (and I'm not pointing any fingers here) assert rights that go way beyond the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act to intimidate people. I'm not pointing any fingers here. Have I said that already?

No, really. I love everybody.

(Note. I'm an ordinary punter with a reasonable education who can look things up and read carefully. Not a lawyer)

 

[Sinisalo]

Not exactly. The original text of the RQ2/3 rules, IIRC, is (c) Chaosium, as the exact text that one publishes _is_ his copyright, so you cannot copy it outright. Mongoose _could_ have produced something closer to old RQ without actually copying the original books, but chose to change many details while retaining much of the original system.

I agree. Well put.

And by changing a hell of a lot you are doubly beyond reproach.

IMHO

 

[algauble]

As far as 'reverse engineering' and pushing the envelope in that direction, I would refer anyone interested to OSRIC.

http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/

There's a similar effort underway for FASERIP/Marvel.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Issaries clearly stated that no Glorantha materials can be considered Open Content. However, if you comply with the Issaries fan products policy, you can make your own visions available to the public. I think that Greg is not pleased by adaptations of Gloranthan third age materials to other systems than HeroQuest, but you'd better ask him about that.

I am very sure that this is the case. And I suspect Rick Meints would also be somewhat concerned as he is the current licenseholder for Gloranthan 3rd Age material. The matter got discussed briefly at StellarCon 31 this weekend - a spendid little convention.

Jeff

Are we talking about commercial material published for profit here, or fan material too? Not everyone finds the HQ system to be their cup of tea...

SGL.