Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
Mage said:
A Very Good Point!
Mobile Infantry Add-ons Updated: 01/11/2008
- Thread starter Hiromoon
- Start date
A Very Good Point!
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Anonymous
Guest
Its amazing how a discussion about a game can lead to this. :roll:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Wasnt sating it was a bad thing to have open discussions about topics like these. Just amazed at how the topic had switched.
Oh. I found the emoticon misleading. No harm no foul. Ya topics can waddle like a poorly crafted dreidel sometimes. I recall a few starship troopers topics about a year ago turning into some of use talking late at night about food. The thread was about three pages of food talk. Next day people were like 'wtf?'.
Egads...
Well, nice to see this has gotten so much attention. First, in concern of the Chaplain being either a separate unit or a Heroic Trait. The way I picture it, it's far more than a simple Heroic trait, as the Chaplain embodies a unit's faith in something. That something, either as the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cosmic Muffin, or Hairy Thunderer, can be anything you want. I prefer the padre preaching on about the virtues of the hard work that went into building the Federation, the power that it holds through that hard work, and the value and worth. Faith in yourself, your people, and the system that exists because of you is something I find worth fighting for.
Also, in the UCF book (which I don't feel like digging through the store-room for at the moment), states that it doesn't matter what religious denomination you happen to be, as long as you do your duty. Now, if you were an Arab or a Buddhist would you want some man of the cloth preaching about the Christian god or the benefits of Tao-ism? Wouldn't the greater whole of humanity in general be a better choice to preach about considering the war of the species taking place?
Anyway, I plan on tweaking the Engineer squad a bit, maybe give them more options (everyone love demo after all). Mage, as for the suits, the fluff states they get heavier armor because of their value to the soldiers in the field. I don't think anything Stryker related should be included (since the Stryker suit is simply a slightly stripped down Power Suit the difference are really environmental).
Well, nice to see this has gotten so much attention. First, in concern of the Chaplain being either a separate unit or a Heroic Trait. The way I picture it, it's far more than a simple Heroic trait, as the Chaplain embodies a unit's faith in something. That something, either as the Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cosmic Muffin, or Hairy Thunderer, can be anything you want. I prefer the padre preaching on about the virtues of the hard work that went into building the Federation, the power that it holds through that hard work, and the value and worth. Faith in yourself, your people, and the system that exists because of you is something I find worth fighting for.
Also, in the UCF book (which I don't feel like digging through the store-room for at the moment), states that it doesn't matter what religious denomination you happen to be, as long as you do your duty. Now, if you were an Arab or a Buddhist would you want some man of the cloth preaching about the Christian god or the benefits of Tao-ism? Wouldn't the greater whole of humanity in general be a better choice to preach about considering the war of the species taking place?
Anyway, I plan on tweaking the Engineer squad a bit, maybe give them more options (everyone love demo after all). Mage, as for the suits, the fluff states they get heavier armor because of their value to the soldiers in the field. I don't think anything Stryker related should be included (since the Stryker suit is simply a slightly stripped down Power Suit the difference are really environmental).
Ah, more armour. Cool. Also, I want a chaplain mini like in the art of the book.
New deities to consider worship of: Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cosmic Muffin, or Hairy Thunderer.
Also gives an idea for a rebel colony, you could have different types:
Religious extremists
Terrorists
Traitors
A mix of the above, be it a rogue chaplain with brainwashed faithful (maybe a control bug or two involved), rebel colony terrorists, and things like the Black Cross.
Also what would be cool for the mobile infantry is doctrines for the regminets like GW did for the latest incarnation of the marines.
New deities to consider worship of: Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, Cosmic Muffin, or Hairy Thunderer.
Also gives an idea for a rebel colony, you could have different types:
Religious extremists
Terrorists
Traitors
A mix of the above, be it a rogue chaplain with brainwashed faithful (maybe a control bug or two involved), rebel colony terrorists, and things like the Black Cross.
Also what would be cool for the mobile infantry is doctrines for the regminets like GW did for the latest incarnation of the marines.
Here's a hint to any critics of having a chaplain in the game. It's called read the novel by R.A. Heinlein.
It was described that he serviced any denomination, as a real military chaplain would. He also fought within the platoon, chucking grenades with the best of the soldiers and even leading a section of three squads as a sergeant (the platoon cook led the other section!).
Here is a quote from the book. "...and not necessarily those of his creed, either- Moslems, Christians, Gnostics, Jews, whoever wanted a word with him before a drop, he was there."
For Americans, this was a bit like a famous quote from the attack on Pearl Harbor- "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!".
While I'm neither Atheist or really what you'd define as actively religious, I have no problem with its inclusion in the game. It's just another military specialty to me, like a medic for the soul (tm of BuShips, lol). :wink:
Btw, it's already included in the RPG version of SST, as Hiromoon grabbed the artwork from that source.
It was described that he serviced any denomination, as a real military chaplain would. He also fought within the platoon, chucking grenades with the best of the soldiers and even leading a section of three squads as a sergeant (the platoon cook led the other section!).
Here is a quote from the book. "...and not necessarily those of his creed, either- Moslems, Christians, Gnostics, Jews, whoever wanted a word with him before a drop, he was there."
For Americans, this was a bit like a famous quote from the attack on Pearl Harbor- "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!".
While I'm neither Atheist or really what you'd define as actively religious, I have no problem with its inclusion in the game. It's just another military specialty to me, like a medic for the soul (tm of BuShips, lol). :wink:
Btw, it's already included in the RPG version of SST, as Hiromoon grabbed the artwork from that source.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
BuShips said:
But Benn sort of missed the point of the point he made, when he made his point in the first place!
Proteus454
Mongoose
Hiromoon said:
Well, a fair number of Arabs are actually also Christians, so who knows? *ba-dum, tish!*
Seriously though. While I understand the notion that the virtues upon which the UCF are built is something you'd want extolled through the MI, isn't that, well, isn't that the job of the drill sergeant? If your officers and NCO's are not helping to cultivate (not necessarily preaching, but at least maintainng decorum) a proper respect for the regulations and ideals of the organization you're fighting for, a respect drilled into you (hence the name) at boot camp, then fobbing the job off on a man with gold shoulderplates seems like a band-aid solution at best.
Faith in The Magic Macguffin Of Your Choice Wtching Over You and faith in The System Works And Is Worth Dying For is two different flavours of faith entirely. The more vague and protean (er, so to speak) a theology is, and it must indeed be vague if you're going to fit Wiccans, Muslims, Shinto-Buddhists and Asatru under the same umbrella, the less likely it is that people are going to find themselves fired into a convincingly bellicose mood for it.
This is why we have secular governments, guys. If you play favourites, others get left out and resentment builds, which is a result antithetical to the aim of the UCF. Or you can just reduce it to vague homilies that will mesh with whatever a person chooses to belief, in which case (as noted above) it must necessarily be starved of almost all vigour and context. The only lasting solution is to propagate those good ideals on their own merits, to make the ideals themselves worth fighting for and worth supporting without resorting to co-opting wedge issues.
In short, the ideals of SICON should already be being exemplified through the existing command structure, and the Federation shouldn't need to have to appeal to post-mortem rewards and the sponsorship of the divine to justify itself. Dressing the regulations up in the language of religion and naming a Chaplain to tend to the "spiritual" needs of the soldiery smacks of trying to have your cake and drop it into a hot LZ too.
It was an interesting idea in the RP, perhaps, but it really does cut too close to the 40K niche of the Commissar or the attached Priest. Yes, simply subsuming the inspiration qualities of the Chaplain into a heroic trait or equivalent for the Officers and NCOs is really the better option all round.
Proteus454
Mongoose
Afterthought: My next MI platoon is TOTALLY going to be composed of Wiccans, Muslims, Shinto-Buddhists and Asatruar. I mean, can you imagine the possibilities?
The Drill Sergeant isn't your mother, he's not there to inspire you to be great, he's not there to be the bedrock of your faith. He's there to break you down, strip away your notions and illusions of grandeur and rebuild you into a soldier. He's not there to sympathize and give you a hand up. He's not there to do minor psychological work on you. He's there to beat into you how to kill, how to fight, how to combat what comes at you.
Officers are not there to provide you with morality, nor deal with what you've seen. They're there to tell you where to hump your pack to and where to die, if need be. They might be grunts like you, and they're in the same crap as you are, but they're not going to tell you 'You know why you should be proud to be wearing that uniform?'.
The 40k Commissar is neither there to coddle you, nor comfort you. They're there to enforce the Book of Regulations in the harshest form possible. You break, you die. The SST Chaplain won't shoot you for running. He won't blame you for running. He's there with you, he's mortal, but he's the object of faith (in yourself, in your comrades, in humanity as a whole). You don't look to him for orders, nor anything but moral guidance. The 40K Priest isn't there to do anything but extole the virtues of getting yourself killed in the name of the Emperor. The SST Chaplain would rather you not die on him, even if it is in the service of the Federation. And of course you'll get pithy quotes and maybe even jaunty tunes sung on both camps, but the Chaplain won't shoot you for being out of tune.
I, again, disagree with merely making it a Heroic Trait.
Officers are not there to provide you with morality, nor deal with what you've seen. They're there to tell you where to hump your pack to and where to die, if need be. They might be grunts like you, and they're in the same crap as you are, but they're not going to tell you 'You know why you should be proud to be wearing that uniform?'.
The 40k Commissar is neither there to coddle you, nor comfort you. They're there to enforce the Book of Regulations in the harshest form possible. You break, you die. The SST Chaplain won't shoot you for running. He won't blame you for running. He's there with you, he's mortal, but he's the object of faith (in yourself, in your comrades, in humanity as a whole). You don't look to him for orders, nor anything but moral guidance. The 40K Priest isn't there to do anything but extole the virtues of getting yourself killed in the name of the Emperor. The SST Chaplain would rather you not die on him, even if it is in the service of the Federation. And of course you'll get pithy quotes and maybe even jaunty tunes sung on both camps, but the Chaplain won't shoot you for being out of tune.
I, again, disagree with merely making it a Heroic Trait.
Proteus454
Mongoose
Hiromoon said:
Which (forgive my pithiness) sounds like some pretty darn MAJOR psychological work, if you ask me. I'd also argue that the 40K Priest's job is encourage you to get killed also by virtue of getting killed alongside you (spitting in the face of a deadly Chaos Marine as his giant chainsword revs down in the chest of a second Renegade), but at this point, I'm both digressing AND picking nits.
Instead, I'm going to address an underlying point here. You've pointed out how the Drill Sergeant and the Officer are not supposed to do the job of the Chaplain, nor the Grief Counsellor nor the Sympathetic Ear In Times Of Stress. Which is true.
Nor are you or anyone else mistaken in pointing out that chaplains proper exist not only in the MI (see Heinlein) but in other armies, modern or otherwise. What I'M addressing is the idea of the Sicon Chaplain, as it appears in the Field Manual and in the army listing we're currently discussing. An idea which, and here's the problem, Doesn't Make Sense(tm).
The key point is the one I addressed previous - If you want an Official Battlefield Rallying-Point-Guy in the form of a Chaplain, then there's pretty much one of three ways you can do that.
1) You endorse a specific religion, whether invented or already existent, and have your Chaplain dispense morality, sympathy and inspiration on that basis. For reasons I probably don't have to elaborate on, this is Not Going To Fly(tm)*.
2) You have the Chaplain adopt something everyone can agree on, probably along the lines of the Non-Anthropomorphic-Non-Culturally-Specific-Laws-Of-Physics God as extolled by modern-day Unitarians, Deists and tepidly acknowledged by various flavours of Agnostics. Man, I had a suppress a yawn just writing that down; Imagine the reception it would receive from a platoon of harried Cap Troopers as they find themselves hard pressed by the latest Coven offensive.
3) This is what they do in the Field Manual - Emboss a SICON manual in gold, and have the Chaplain treat it as their "bible", that is to say, as their holy text and instruction manual. I've addressed this point also, as it regards the having of the cake and sending it off for Pathfinder training at the same time**. Borrowing theological language and plopping it on top of a guy who would probably do his best to inspire his fellow troopers through example and empathy anyhow would seem to weaken the overall premise our Chaplain is trying to support anyhow.
Hiromoon said:
And I disagree with your trivialization of that larger-than-life collection of impressive talents, force of personality and studied fields of knowledge that comprise Heroic Traits as "merely". 8b
Actually, I AM going to expand on that also, as it seems to be another underlying point the pro-Sicon Chaplain fellows are working from. Heroic Traits are, if you think about it, kind of a big deal. An NCO with Rallying Cry is the kind of guy who can drive you to ignore incoming bullets by loud shouting and sheer force of personality, for Ra's sake!
I've never really thought it's necessary to have a character class for every single little gradation from the bog-standard Cap Trooper in the RP, and in the Minis context where scale reduces these differences further still, it definitely feels like an artificial idea making a small mountain of what ought to be a fairly large molehill.
To summarize, if you wanna paint a trooper or officer up and say "That there's my Chaplain!", more power to you. But I just don't think it warrants a whole new listing where the use of a Heroic Trait would do the job just as well with less complication i.e. work better.
* - Alright, I'm sorry, that's the last capitalized trademark joke, I promise.
** - I reserve the right to keep it up with the having-your-cake variations, however.
Well, what I'm trying to get at is that it's not something that can really be adequately described as a Heroic Trait. Heck, we're not really talking about an religious sort of character, despite the connotations the name Chaplain conjure up.
The Chaplain, at least pictured here and in the RPG, isn't espousing upon any religion but more on the faith in yourself, your fellow soldiers, and in mankind. The Edifices are able to stand because of you and your fellows in arms. People don't have to go to war because of you, people don't have to know the horrors you face, the loss you suffer, the pain inflicted because you're there. You're stronger than anything religion can conjure, because without YOU religion is nothing. Without Religion you're still a human being. And the SICON Chaplain is there talking about you, effectively. The regulations book is there for padding, because even with confidence you're still mortal and you will be reminded of that through the course of your service to the Federation.
At least, that's what I got from my own perspective of the fighting man, the fluff of the chaplain, and the whole feeling I got from SST on the whole.
The Chaplain, at least pictured here and in the RPG, isn't espousing upon any religion but more on the faith in yourself, your fellow soldiers, and in mankind. The Edifices are able to stand because of you and your fellows in arms. People don't have to go to war because of you, people don't have to know the horrors you face, the loss you suffer, the pain inflicted because you're there. You're stronger than anything religion can conjure, because without YOU religion is nothing. Without Religion you're still a human being. And the SICON Chaplain is there talking about you, effectively. The regulations book is there for padding, because even with confidence you're still mortal and you will be reminded of that through the course of your service to the Federation.
At least, that's what I got from my own perspective of the fighting man, the fluff of the chaplain, and the whole feeling I got from SST on the whole.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
Col_stone said:
Deanna Troi In a MI Uniform . . . .
Phwaor!
