Mind Control

[Klaus Kipling]

Just saw a report on the Channel 4 News about mind controlled video games.

I've been following this tech in the media for a while now, and this game tech, http://emotiv.com/, is going to hit the shops this Xmas.

While primitive, it's obvious that this stuff works, and will only get better and more sophisticated within our lifetimes (TL8). Extrapolate this to a mature TL10-15 society, and it would be odd for this stuff not to be in use.

Basically, we don't need neural implants to do this stuff (at least, using your mind to control devices - having devices affect the mind might be a different matter), a simple headband or cap will do.

So how can this, now obvious concept, be included in our favourite sci-fi rpg?

In terms of game effects, it's probably quite simple. In fact, maybe it's already implicit. We expect our TL12 vacsuits to have some kind of HuD, and some way of controlling suit comms and sensors in the field. Are our characters really fumbling around with tongue-operated joysticks (please, no puns :wink: ) or clumsy wrist mounted controls? We can envisage choices made by eye movement and blinking, but with this brain sensor our characters can stop acting like Herbert Lom in "The Pink Panther Strikes Again".

I can see this tech as a standard feature of combat helmets, allowing soldiers to adjust their visual sensors, update the tactical map, change the preferences setting for their smart weapon, and contact their CO on private all while they're crawling through the undergrowth sneaking up on the enemy.

Mechanically this hardly affects the game at all. A surgeon operating on a patient can already call up reference data into his eyeglass from the database. He just doesn't need to talk or ask a nurse to do it for him.

At most it just means that a standard action might now become a minor action, or a minor action becomes a free action. No worrying about modifiers or game balance, no complex rules necessary.

The opposite effect, the device putting data back into the human mind, like Alistair Reynold's experientials, is another matter, but Traveller should be able to assimilate mind control of devices without any fuss at all.

 

[SSWarlock]

...Traveller should be able to assimilate mind control of devices without any fuss at all.

Wanna bet? Look up "Psionic Suppressions (800 to 826)". Led the Imperium into five frontier wars in the Spinward Marches against the Zhodani Consulate.

Then again, there was a write-up on a brain-imbedded control chip in one of the old JTAS's.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

...Traveller should be able to assimilate mind control of devices without any fuss at all.

Wanna bet? Look up "Psionic Suppressions (800 to 826)". Led the Imperium into five frontier wars in the Spinward Marches against the Zhodani Consulate.

Then again, there was a write-up on a brain-imbedded control chip in one of the old JTAS's.

But this has nothing to with psionics, or messing with peoples minds. It's about dialling your mum on the phone with a thought. Totally different things.

And the whole point is to avoid brain implants of any kind. Also, dated articles from the mid 80's aren't particularly relevant to a 21c game.

And the OTU and Traveller are not the same thing.

 

[-Daniel-]

And the OTU and Traveller are not the same thing.

While I agree with you 100%, it might be a nice thing to be clear at the start of your thread/post that you are just discussing using the Traveller rule set and not trying to discuss your idea in context to the OTU. That would save a lot of time and misunderstandings.

Just a thought.

Daniel

 

[Travellingdave]

I agree that this is an existing technology which might logically be part of the Third Imperium. If you want your Traveller ships controlled by headsets instead of control boards, feel free. The main question seems to be: Does that feel like Traveller to you?

Unfortunately (or not, depending on you opinion), the OTU already ignores a great many current technologies that would totally change the nature of gaming in Traveller. Robots, in particular, are marginalized far more than current trends would indicate. The battlefields of the future look to be heavily roboticized by the end of the century. Imagine what they could be like by the 53rd? Yet the Third Imperium still depends on men with guns, not "dispersed network defense swarms with hardened emp systems and self-replicating field reprocessors". Robots are, at best, an ancillary part of most Imperial TOEs.

This is a question I constantly ask myself: How do I rationalize why a specific piece of modern (or near future) tech hasn't become an obvious part of the fabric of the Traveller universe? And if I want it to be part of MTU, how much does it change things? At what point do these changes turn MTU into something totally different from the flavor and spirit of the OTU? Each GM gets to answer these him(or her)self.

 

[EDG]

And the OTU and Traveller are not the same thing.

While I agree with you 100%, it might be a nice thing to be clear at the start of your thread/post that you are just discussing using the Traveller rule set and not trying to discuss your idea in context to the OTU. That would save a lot of time and misunderstandings.

Well he did say "Traveller", not "the OTU"... this is something people are just going to have to get used to now and interpret correctly. Traveller is the ruleset, the OTU is a setting using those rules (and not the default one for much longer).

That said, it would certainly be worthwhile when discussing such things to specify whether one is talking about the OTU itself or an ATU set in the Charted Space setting. But Klaus was just talking about Traveller itself.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Actually, I did mean the OTU as well, tho I was more interested in the rule set.

There's no mention of soap or washing machines in the OTU whatsoever. Doesn't mean they don't have them. Where's the stuff that forbids the addition of new ideas?

I don't really see the justification of fossilising the OTU in early 80's sf tropes.

'Traveller-iness' is not about having vacuum tube computers and recording data on magnetic tape. It's about being somewhat conservative technologically speaking, and not just adding in whatever sci-fi frippery comes to mind. A 'mind control' headset is going on sale now; it's not even sci-fi anymore.

And robots are OTU - there's an entire supplement for them in CT, and new ones to come. There is a specific section on them in TMB. Just because so far authors have not made extensive use of them in published material does not mean to say they are not used in the 3I. This just reflects what those authors were interested in. Nowhere does it say that OTU militaries do not make use of robots in published material. The only proviso is that a squaddie with a rifle is still the foundation of OTU armed forces. That's not unreasonable in a game where folk play humans or other sentients (there are even rules for playing robots, too).

Anyway, all I wanted to do was discuss an interesting RW tech and how easy it could be to integrate in Traveller. I did not want another tedious discussion as to what is Traveller and what is not.

 

[Duroon]

As far as OTU goes I could see why the Imperium wouldn't use such a technology. The average Imperium citizen seems downright paranoid about any sort of mind control tech and psionics. Such technology would be downright ordinary for Zhodani however.

 

[-Daniel-]

Ok, so let's take this back on topic.

Are we discussing real mind control or micro muscle control?

I ask because I have seen a lot done where the computer is interpreting various muscle moves, like the wink in the opening page of the URL you gave. So if I just think of the wink without doing it, will the technology you are thinking of still put a wink in for me?

If so, this presents some interesting problems/opportunities. How does the technology differentiate between my “command” thoughts and just random thoughts. How does the system also filter out other noise from my brain, for example my unconscious thoughts?

To be clear I am not asking these things because I think you have the answers so much as to add to the “extrapolation” and thus to the issues that the tech might have to deal with. Maybe the thought requires a voice command as well? Or maybe the commands have to be limited to a set number and one must practice with the unit?

I will stop here for the moment, but it is an interesting idea.

Daniel

 

[Klaus Kipling]

As far as OTU goes I could see why the Imperium wouldn't use such a technology. The average Imperium citizen seems downright paranoid about any sort of mind control tech <snip>

While in total agreement about psionics, where does it say the Imperium would/does not use alternative methods to control things?

This is about using the brain to turn things on or off, not technology to peer into peoples minds (the primary fear when it comes to psionics). It is one way. It is equivalent to voice control, just without having to speak.

I just do not see any evidence at all that people in the OTU would be afraid of this.

Especially since...

1) There are already neural comms and wafer jacks. This tech doesn't even require surgery.

2) How do people control all the functions on their vacsuit?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

To be clear I am not asking these things because I think you have the answers so much as to add to the “extrapolation” and thus to the issues that the tech might have to deal with. Maybe the thought requires a voice command as well? Or maybe the commands have to be limited to a set number and one must practice with the unit?

I will stop here for the moment, but it is an interesting idea.

Daniel

Well, perhaps a new user would have to break it in, just like any new device. When you buy a car, especially nowadays, you change the settings to suit you as an individual. So maybe you'd have to calibrate your new combat helmet to suit you.

In RL, this tech uses both muscle-twitching (like Prof Hawking's controller) and measuring brain activity. Jump 3 or 4 TLs I can imagine a seamless kind of brain activity control.

After all, in most cases it's not going to be more complicated than using a mouse to select options.

And, we've seen "Firefox".

 

[Travellingdave]

Actually, I did mean the OTU as well, tho I was more interested in the rule set.

Fair enough, but I don't know if these forums get to determine what is or isn't OTU, strictly speaking. You're just getting everyone's opinions on what they feel is appropriate for the OTU.

In that vein, I'm not one to "freeze" the Traveller Universe. I could see non-invasive, mental interfaces in Traveller. You might want them widely introduced at a high TL (say 13 or so) or else they could be close to ubiquitous. It seems like it could be the "new, cool thing."

And robots are OTU - there's an entire supplement for them in CT, and new ones to come. There is a specific section on them in TMB. Just because so far authors have not made extensive use of them in published material does not mean to say they are not used in the 3I. This just reflects what those authors were interested in. Nowhere does it say that OTU militaries do not make use of robots in published material. The only proviso is that a squaddie with a rifle is still the foundation of OTU armed forces. That's not unreasonable in a game where folk play humans or other sentients (there are even rules for playing robots, too).

I never said that robots didn't exist in Traveller, only that they didn't have nearly the prominence that current technological trends would indicate, particularly with regards to the military. IIRC, it is stated in CT (and elsewhere) that only the Zhodani make any widespread use of robots in warfare, and even then, warbots are not their main ground attack force. And certainly no Imperial Robotic Assault Brigade has ever been mentioned, even in passing. Yet, if the U.S. Military gets its wishes, robots could be our Arm of Decision by 2150.

Of course, everyone can have robots in the OTU, but they don't seem to have replaced organics in many of the roles we are currently anticipating they will. And I agree that it makes sense to keep the guns in the hands of the "fleshies" in a game that focuses on organic sophonts as compared to transhumanist characters. That's part of the "feel" of the OTU. Nothing wrong with that.

It's just that rationalizing it in the face of current technological trends can prove to be an interesting experiment in its own right. Why don't the Imperials use robots like we do? Why aren't there any Imperial Robotic Assault Brigades? Can't they make them or is there a technological roadblock? (Not indicated by the rules, but who knows?) Or is it that they don't trust them? If not, why not? If mental control interfaces are practical and logical, why aren't they the interface of choice in the OTU? How you answer those questions can shape many parts of YTU.

And I'll stop there, because this is feeling like a threadjack.

 

[Dyrewulf]

Technology will grow and grow...and trying to create an ultra tech game for your own setting is a pain...just trying to think around how technology may progress is mind boggling. We have machines, such as the emotiv that Klaus brought up that can read brain waves and react off of the electrical impulses our noggin produces...
A monkey recently fed itself with a robotic arm, of course it had an implant...but this is all today...500 years-2000 years from now?

 

[Duroon]

As far as OTU goes I could see why the Imperium wouldn't use such a technology. The average Imperium citizen seems downright paranoid about any sort of mind control tech <snip>

While in total agreement about psionics, where does it say the Imperium would/does not use alternative methods to control things?

This is about using the brain to turn things on or off, not technology to peer into peoples minds (the primary fear when it comes to psionics). It is one way. It is equivalent to voice control, just without having to speak.

I just do not see any evidence at all that people in the OTU would be afraid of this.

Especially since...

1) There are already neural comms and wafer jacks. This tech doesn't even require surgery.

2) How do people control all the functions on their vacsuit?

Right on the page where it talks about enhancements actually on page 89. While they do list Augmentations of the human body it is considered to be unpleasant and even perverse in many cultures. Genetic or surgical alteration of the human form is frowned upon in the Imperium. Add in the prevailing attitude towards psionics and it seems logical to me that mind control of systems and electrical devices would have to be lumped into the above attitudes as well.

I am sure many cultures, even ones residing in the Imperium, would make use of such devices anyway. Not every culture is as backwards thinking as the next. Certain worlds might outlaw such things however.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

IIRC, it is stated in CT (and elsewhere) that only the Zhodani make any widespread use of robots in warfare, and even then, warbots are not their main ground attack force. And certainly no Imperial Robotic Assault Brigade has ever been mentioned, even in passing. Yet, if the U.S. Military gets its wishes, robots could be our Arm of Decision by 2150.

It's just that rationalizing it in the face of current technological trends can prove to be an interesting experiment in its own right. Why don't the Imperials use robots like we do? Why aren't there any Imperial Robotic Assault Brigades? Can't they make them or is there a technological roadblock? (Not indicated by the rules, but who knows?) Or is it that they don't trust them? If not, why not?

Well, I think any society would be wary of putting killing power in the hands of machines (and this includes ours - just because the military envisages using robots everywhere does not mean this will be so). The Zhodani do it because their robots are pretty dumb - in fact, they could be regarded as psionic drones.

And just because an Imperial Robotic Assault Brigade has not been mentioned so far does not mean it does not exist...

If mental control interfaces are practical and logical, why aren't they the interface of choice in the OTU? How you answer those questions can shape many parts of YTU.

Who says they are not the interface of choice? Very little is said about how folk interface with devices; it's fuzzy.

There's also the fact that until recently this tech just wasn't considered; in fact to an 80's sci-fi gamer it might have looked like magic without cyberpunk style implants, just like voice control might've done in the 40's.

In fact, it's my assertion (in my own small way ) that much of the high-tech gizmos that have been in Traveller in the past, and that are certainly in MGT, would need some kind of streamlined interface like this to be operated properly.

I wouldn't want to need a full keyboard and mouse set up to control my smart gun, for instance.

Or using a stylus while I'm in my vacsuit trying to operate the built in sensors with the computer weave.

I don't envisage such 'neural lace' interfaces to be particularly complex in most cases. Nothing really different from what we do now with a mouse, which is basically 'one finger controls'.

Perhaps it could get more advanced, such as thinking the words for menu settings.

With some practice such methods could be used while doing regular things like walking or running. It does not have to be more complicated than riding a bike.

And I'll stop there, because this is feeling like a threadjack.

Not at all.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Right on the page where it talks about enhancements actually on page 89. While they do list Augmentations of the human body it is considered to be unpleasant and even perverse in many cultures. Genetic or surgical alteration of the human form is frowned upon in the Imperium. Add in the prevailing attitude towards psionics and it seems logical to me that mind control of systems and electrical devices would have to be lumped into the above attitudes as well.

I am sure many cultures, even ones residing in the Imperium, would make use of such devices anyway. Not every culture is as backwards thinking as the next. Certain worlds might outlaw such things however.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Augmentations whatsoever. This tech is neither genetic nor cybernetic. Nothing is added to the human form. It is like wearing a hat.

It really is no different to hand's free mobiles or bluetooth. And psionics is not relevant at all.

Psionics is scary because:

1) mind reading and other forms of mind-diddling. Therefore you can't keep secrets...
2) being able to move inanimate objects around. That's pretty spooky in a universe without tractor beams...
3) being able to teleport anywhere. No security, no locks that work...

Psionics can also let you listen and/or watch remotely; does this mean surveillance is outlawed too? CCTV, Big Brother style stuff is scary on a whole different level and for different reasons than psionics is. The reasoning behind the Imperial fear of psionics is well summed in the new SM.

This mind control thing is just the next iteration of the Wiimote, really.

 

[Duroon]

But that's what psionics is, using the power of your mind to do things. It is a slippery slope, first the caps to control objects and next the caps to read others minds. If the cap can read your mind to control a device how far of a step is it to add the ability to read others minds? I admit that it isn't implicitly stated in the background that this sort of device would be something to be feared, but it is the sort of thing that I would imagine a psionics fearing people to be wary of.

And hands free mobiles or bluetooth is a long ways from what your talking about. Those are devices that communicate with other devices, your talking about devices that you control with the power of your mind.

 

[Travellingdave]

Well, I think any society would be wary of putting killing power in the hands of machines (and this includes ours - just because the military envisages using robots everywhere does not mean this will be so).

Yes, I credit good old-fashioned prejudice as one reason, although I've been working on the idea that true Sapient AI is notoriously unstable in MTU, which means that few independently effective combat robots are possible. Experiments have resulted in many crazy robots ... and more than a few dead bystanders. In addition, effective battlefield ECM makes remote-controlled drones less dependable than they are currently.

That said, I've created minidrones that can launch from battledress and act as remote eyes for the trooper. Plus, I've decided on limited AI combat bots used as forward observers as well as first-in troops to take initial casualties while the fleshies collect battlefield intel on enemy numbers. Then the human troopers can effect the best tactical response. And most of my drugs above TL12 are actually nanotech medichines that go in, repair or affect your system as specified, then go inert and flush out afterwards.

But all this is in my TU. I doubt they would totally fit in the canonical OTU and not violate something pre-existing.

And just because an Imperial Robotic Assault Brigade has not been mentioned so far does not mean it does not exist...

Perhaps in some secret base hidden near the Zhodani Frontier ....

Who says they are not the interface of choice? Very little is said about how folk interface with devices; it's fuzzy.

Well, I've seen a bit on controls and interfaces in Traveller, particularly by DGP (check out the Starship Operator's Manual) and most are tactile or vocal in nature. Even pupil-tracking has been cited (like the gunsight in an attack helicopter) as well as subdermal muscle response.

Does that mean that you can't have non-invasive, neural interfaces? Hell, no! I like them. But making them common equipment might IIRC contradict some published material. Doesn't mean they can't exist in the OTU in some way, though. That's one of the reasons I recommended a High TL introduction. They could be the next wave of controls, moving gradually out from the Core.

And they can definitely be the standard kit in YTU. :wink:

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Well, I've seen a bit on controls and interfaces in Traveller, particularly by DGP (check out the Starship Operator's Manual) and most are tactile or vocal in nature. Even pupil-tracking has been cited (like the gunsight in an attack helicopter) as well as subdermal muscle response.

Does that mean that you can't have non-invasive, neural interfaces? Hell, no! I like them. But making them common equipment might IIRC contradict some published material. Doesn't mean they can't exist in the OTU in some way, though. That's one of the reasons I recommended a High TL introduction. They could be the next wave of controls, moving gradually out from the Core.

And they can definitely be the standard kit in YTU. :wink:

Well indeed sir!

But I think we'll struggle to find any canon that contradicts this stuff. If this tech had been around in the 80's, do we think that the DGP stuff would not have included it?

I'm not requesting official status for this concept by any means!

But at the same time I don't see anything that disallows it in canon terms, and given our 21c sensibilities it would a shame to disregard it.

As I said initially, it hardly affects the game mechanically at all, as it's mostly colour, and you could say it's even implicit in the use of some gadgets (given what we know now).

Comparing it to psionics is a red herring. That is mind diddling oogi-booginess; this is just an efficient way to turn your suit lights on, or change a comm channel. You'll be reading no ones's minds with your suit helmet interface, because that's not what it's designed for.

The jack-booted spooks, though, might have a nice, secure chair with a big, nasty skull cap that can... :twisted:

If we posit the notion of VR/Better-Than-Life style entertainments, which have been mentioned in canon in the past, this is a nice mechanism for how they work, without resorting to handwavium.

And, it's cool.

 

[Golan2072]

Yet the Third Imperium still depends on men with guns, not "dispersed network defense swarms with hardened emp systems and self-replicating field reprocessors". Robots are, at best, an ancillary part of most Imperial TOEs.

The metagame reason for this is probably that we, as humans love to read, write and play stories about humans in combat more than those about robots in combat. Unless, of course, you make the robots "human" (that is, sentient and with a personality resembling a human one), in which case the metagame difference from heavily cyborged humans isn't too big.

This is a question I constantly ask myself: How do I rationalize why a specific piece of modern (or near future) tech hasn't become an obvious part of the fabric of the Traveller universe? And if I want it to be part of MTU, how much does it change things? At what point do these changes turn MTU into something totally different from the flavor and spirit of the OTU? Each GM gets to answer these him(or her)self.

What you'd probably want to add to your setting's timeline is some kind of a greatly traumatic historical event involving robots and/or cyborgs and/or biotech and/or AIs and/or genetic engineering; traumatic enough to greatly impede any progress in these fields. If you've ever played the System Shock computer game, that'll be a perfect example of the event you'd want.

That said, the real question regarding mind/machine interface is what would be its game-mechanics effect. I could easily a decade or two from now see people implanting a simple "universal mouse" in their brains with a WiFi transmitter, allowing to interface with any compatible device without using their hands. But, aside from freeing their hands while they interface with the computer, how would that change their performance as computer users? Even a higher-tech version tapping into the optical cortex as well as the motor one (so that an output window would be projected into part of the user's field of vision), would probably function quite similarly to a wearable computer, just with no need for cumbersome external parts...