Military Vehicles - Submarines

[dreamingbadger]

Hi Guys,
just finished reading Mil Vehicles... Subs ... the Costal Sub has a fuel processor, so I guess it's operational range isn't really 8 hours, but the Fuel processor costs 10k rather than the 50k I would expect from the main traveller handbook, is this because it only produces 1/5th the fuel e.g. 4DTons/day (54M3 per day or 54000 Liters per day or 2250 Liters per hour?) meaning it can replace its operational fuel supply in just one hour of "snorkeling"?

similiar questions on the sub carrier and TL10 frigate at 15k each, I assume that is about 6DTons/day?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

That's how I interpreted it as well. You can have smaller Fuel Processors.

The operational range would be without refueling...

 

[Treebore]

Snorkeling, in modern times, replaces "power supply" by allowing the engines to run and recharge the massive bank of batteries.

I would assume if they have a hydrogen fuel system, which is eventually used for Jump Drives, then they have to snorkel while converting the hydrogen in the water into pure hydrogen fuel.

So presumably they snorkel for the same reasons they do now. To recycle the air, to ventilate off dangerous gasses produced during the operation, and to allow secondary systems, such as diesel engines, to run while recharging the primary system.

 

[BP]

'Modern' (last 30+ years) submarines - especially nuclear - do not need to snorkel - and the life support systems take care of air quality, fresh water, etc. This is especially important when station keeping under the icecap...

 

[Treebore]

'Modern' (last 30+ years) submarines - especially nuclear - do not need to snorkel - and the life support systems take care of air quality, fresh water, etc. This is especially important when station keeping under the icecap...

I know. I was on board USS Simon Bolivar, a nuclear submarine that may or may not have carried nuclear missiles, that I may or may not have been on board to take care of. For over 5 years.

I only saw a need to talk about submarines that do need to snorkel. There are still plenty of diesel submarines in use around the world, so they are still "modern". It wasn't too long ago Taiwan was looking to buy diesel subs from us.

Last I checked we (the USA) still had diesel submarines in service (the Dolphin), but the last time I checked was around 10 years ago.

Plus even though we didn't have to snorkel, we were still capable of it, and did so several times, usually due to a fire we just fought. A few times were just to do it, to make sure the system worked, and that we knew how to do it.

So I answered for why snorkeling is required, since that was an aspect brought up by the OP.

 

[rust]

'Modern' (last 30+ years) submarines - especially nuclear - do not need to snorkel ...

About 99 % of all modern submarines built over the last thirty years are
non-nuclear ones, and most of them have diesel engines that require air.
So, snorkeling is still a very common procedure on most submarines.

 

[Treebore]

'Modern' (last 30+ years) submarines - especially nuclear - do not need to snorkel ...

About 99 % of all modern submarines built over the last thirty years are
non-nuclear ones, and most of them have diesel engines that require air.
So, snorkeling is still a very common procedure on most submarines.

Are you sure about that? Practically all of the US and Russian submarine fleets are nuclear, and nearly half of China's fleet is nuclear.

Plus there are only a few hundred nuclear submarines in operation world wide, so for them to only be 1% of the total there would have to be 30,000 subs in operation around the world.

 

[rust]

Are you sure about that?

Not at all, I only quoted it, I did not check it ...

Taking a closer look at the material available to me, there are now about
150 nuclear submarines in active service (US 71, Russia 45, China 10,
UK 8, France 10).

The US currently has no diesel submarine listed as in commission, the
Russian navy has about 25 Kilo class diesel submarines still active, re-
liable numbers for China are difficult to get, but it has definitely more
than 25 diesel submarines in active service.

Most of the smaller "frigate navies" seem to have between 3 and 12 sub-
marines, all of them diesel submarines, although some navies - like that
of India - have 20 or more diesel submarines.

You are right, I also doubt that the non-nuclear submarines add up to mo-
re than 15,000, it was silly to repeat the "99 %" without thinking it through
- sorry for that.

 

[Treebore]

Thats fine. Its often hard to tell when such info is even accurate, since everyone is lying about it for "security reasons".

So according to your sources the Dolphin is no longer in operation? Makes sense, thing was pretty darn old.

 

[rust]

So according to your sources the Dolphin is no longer in operation? Makes sense, thing was pretty darn old.

I think you probably mean this Dolphin, which is now a museum ship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dolphin_(AGSS-555)

 

[BP]

I know. I was on board USS Simon Bolivar, a nuclear submarine that may or may not have carried nuclear missiles, that I may or may not have been on board to take care of. For over 5 years.

A sincere Thank You for your service!

I only saw a need to talk about submarines that do need to snorkel. There are still plenty of diesel submarines in use around the world, so they are still "modern". It wasn't too long ago Taiwan was looking to buy diesel subs from us.

Why I used "modern" in quotes - and IIRC there are some non-nuclear subs that don't need snorkels (stirling-cycle; chemical?). When I was a kid in the 70's my father serviced nuclear subs (and the NS Savannah, also Cousteau's Calypso) and I recall touring conventional ones - but I do believe they have all been decommissioned - as was the Dolphin a few years back - still holds deep sea records I think - it was a non-combatant I believe.

Anyway - your post seemed unclear - or at least my reading of it - especially this part:

..I would assume if they have a hydrogen fuel system, which is eventually used for Jump Drives, then they have to snorkel while converting the hydrogen in the water into pure hydrogen fuel. ...

Why snorkeling? Splitting H2 from water leaves oxygen - which has other uses (already) or can be dispersed back into the water...

As for recycling air and venting operational gases - this is currently done without snorkeling - no?

 

[BP]

I think you probably mean this Dolphin, which is now a museum ship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dolphin_(AGSS-555)

Wow - didn't realize all the achievements credited to this sub! (Though - I did think the Navy had other R&D subs - just not this big - but I guess they had other missions as well).

Interesting to note - it had no snorkel mast! :lol:

Good to see it at least went to a museum! Recently came acoss an article about the U.S. Navy's 'stealth' craft and hanger that will likely end up as scrap iron.

(P.S. Alistair MacLean is an excellent author if you an find his books!)

 

[Treebore]

It had no snorkel mast, but it still had to have a hatch open while running the diesels, so that was actually a drawback, she had to be on the surface to ventilate while running the diesels while snorkeling allowed you to at least be submerged and visually harder to see. Plus it gives you an edge on diving to be able to snorkel.



As for the hydrogen gas question, I have no idea how much Oxygen is produced, so dispersing it into the ocean may not be viable because it would be at such a volume as to be a give away. Plus pure oxygen is highly flammable/explosive, so I can see reasons as to why they might prefer to have them on the surface, or snorkeling, for such a process. Depending on the volume produced, and the fire/explosive risks, I can also see ways to make it safe enough to do submerged processing.

However, fires are extremely dangerous on submarines, because we are a completely enclosed atmosphere, so I can see them requiring snorkeling/surfacing for such processing simply because of how much safer it would be to the ship and crew.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Current nuclear submarines can split water for hydrogen and oxygen. Currently we just use the oxygen though.

Without going into the gritty (and probably classified) details, there are systems aboard modern US nuclear submarines for dealing with the hydrogen buildup.

I served aboard the USS Alabama (SSBN 731) for almost four years.

Postulating a fusion reactor that needs periodic hydrogen for fuel, it is very reasonable that current (TL7-8) technology should be able to provide the hydrogen for fuel and the oxygen for breathing without having to snorkle.

So, if I were building a submarine for Traveller, once I had decided to install a nuclear power plant, I would not "require" a snorkle. However, as has been stated several times above, all US nuclear submarines have a diesel backup and do periodically snorkle. So a backup, generator (diesel) would be a "standard" feature of any submarine at least up to TL9.

 

[BP]

I served aboard the USS Alabama (SSBN 731) for almost four years.

Much appreciated - from a fellow American!

... However, as has been stated several times above, all US nuclear submarines have a diesel backup and do periodically snorkle. So a backup, generator (diesel) would be a "standard" feature of any submarine at least up to TL9.

Ah - of course! Though I don't believe it was stated above - question - would that generator theoretically provide for propulsion - or just other systems...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

The backu diesel generator could be used for minimal power and minimal propulsion. I would assume that a backup system on a higher TL vessel would be able to do that much. Not full power or full speed, but maybe 1/4-1/3 speed and 1/4 power (enough to do it's primary mission with no bells or whistles and dim lights).

On a current submarine the vast majority of the power plant's energy is needed for the propulsion system. Providing electricity for everything else is only a small fraction of the total power the reactor can put out.

 

[Treebore]

Current nuclear submarines can split water for hydrogen and oxygen. Currently we just use the oxygen though.

Without going into the gritty (and probably classified) details, there are systems aboard modern US nuclear submarines for dealing with the hydrogen buildup.

I served aboard the USS Alabama (SSBN 731) for almost four years.

Postulating a fusion reactor that needs periodic hydrogen for fuel, it is very reasonable that current (TL7-8) technology should be able to provide the hydrogen for fuel and the oxygen for breathing without having to snorkle.

So, if I were building a submarine for Traveller, once I had decided to install a nuclear power plant, I would not "require" a snorkle. However, as has been stated several times above, all US nuclear submarines have a diesel backup and do periodically snorkle. So a backup, generator (diesel) would be a "standard" feature of any submarine at least up to TL9.

True, but those scrubbers are on a comparatively small scale. I have no idea what the requirements of a hydrogen fuel processing plant would be. If they get big enough, being surfaced or snorkeling may be required.

Plus I don't think your right about Hydrogen build up, I think your confusing it with Carbon Dioxide. Hence "COtwo Scrubbers", not "Hydrogen Scrubbers".

 

[rust]

This could perhaps answer some questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-independent_propulsion

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Current nuclear submarines can split water for hydrogen and oxygen. Currently we just use the oxygen though.

Without going into the gritty (and probably classified) details, there are systems aboard modern US nuclear submarines for dealing with the hydrogen buildup.

I served aboard the USS Alabama (SSBN 731) for almost four years.

Postulating a fusion reactor that needs periodic hydrogen for fuel, it is very reasonable that current (TL7-8) technology should be able to provide the hydrogen for fuel and the oxygen for breathing without having to snorkle.

So, if I were building a submarine for Traveller, once I had decided to install a nuclear power plant, I would not "require" a snorkle. However, as has been stated several times above, all US nuclear submarines have a diesel backup and do periodically snorkle. So a backup, generator (diesel) would be a "standard" feature of any submarine at least up to TL9.

True, but those scrubbers are on a comparatively small scale. I have no idea what the requirements of a hydrogen fuel processing plant would be. If they get big enough, being surfaced or snorkeling may be required.

Plus I don't think your right about Hydrogen build up, I think your confusing it with Carbon Dioxide. Hence "COtwo Scrubbers", not "Hydrogen Scrubbers".

No, I am referring to the system (Classified) on submarines the deals with the hydrogen that is created when seawater is split in the Oxygen Generators.

I do agree that it is "small scale" as compared to what a Traveller designed propulsion system would use, but there ARE systems out there and they work now without snorkling.

 

[Treebore]

"Yeah, it took me a while to remember. I was a "forward of the reactor compartment door" guy, so I rarely went aft, and had forgotten about the plants for electrolysis. I doubt its "classified" though, it isn't like electrolysis is a big secret. The plants themselves may be classified. IE configuration, location, etc...