MgT2 workshop

[Jak Nazryth]

I've tried looking through all my MgT1 books and I can't seem to find "workshop". I know it's there... I just can't seem to find it...

MgT2 High Guard says a workshop is 6 tons and allows for 2 engineers/mechanics to gain a +1 on their skill rolls when repairing ship components, gear, vehicles, "stuff".

I seem to recall that workshops were 4 tons under the older versions of the rules. Am I mistaken?

NOW I know why the Type S scout courier has changed so much and why it no longer has any common space... isn't that illegal btw?
Because now a Type S scout has a 6 ton workshop when for the last 40 years it survived without it.
Why the sudden change? If scouts could survive for so many years without a workshop, why install one now?

Also... since when does a Scout ship have 2 engineers as crewman? Isn't this a waste of space for only a +1 to a skill check for each person when you only have 1 engineer in a space designed for 2 people? Out in the wild you can take all the time shifts you want to give bonuses to fix/repair a component. Plus, isn't a workshop useless without a couple of tons of spare parts?

Would it be within the rules to have a 3 ton workshop on smaller starships so one engineer/mechanic can get a +1 their repair rolls?

Just saying, for a 100 ton scout it seem odd that 6 tons of space has been removed from the design volume for something it never needed in the past.
I'm working on a 200 ton "advanced scout" and over the weekend I studied more thoroughly the new version of the Type "S" as a go-by.
Advanced scanners, check, 10 drones, check, hmmm.... no additional sensor stations? What the heck is this 6 tons..... workshop!?
I simply dont' have the room for a 6 ton workshop they way I'm designing it... and well... it would seem odd if the lowly Type "S" has a workshop and higher tech, longer ranged versions do not....
I COULD do the same thing and remove the common space like they did in the type S, and heck yes I would have room for a 6 ton workshop, but that would seem illegal and well... just too inhumane.
Anyway, that was my basic reaction this weekend.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

NOW I know why the Type S scout courier has changed so much and why it no longer has any common space... isn't that illegal btw?

Common areas are an optional component:

It is common practice to assign an additional amount of tonnage, perhaps equal to a quarter of that used for staterooms, as common areas or general living space.

Because now a Type S scout has a 6 ton workshop when for the last 40 years it survived without it.
Why the sudden change? If scouts could survive for so many years without a workshop, why install one now?

The rear section (13) serves many purposes; on scouts, it carries laboratory and sensor equipment; on couriers, it carries communication equipment and data banks; on detached duty ships, it is cleared out and become a lounge for the crew.

CT S7, p16.

It was always there...


The MgT2 design system allows more efficiently packed ships than LBB2, in order to recreate the classic LBB2 ships some space has to be wasted.

 

[AndrewW]

I've tried looking through all my MgT1 books and I can't seem to find "workshop". I know it's there... I just can't seem to find it...

MgT2 High Guard says a workshop is 6 tons and allows for 2 engineers/mechanics to gain a +1 on their skill rolls when repairing ship components, gear, vehicles, "stuff".

Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers page: 90

But it's really more like the Engineering Workshop found on page: 83.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

THANK YOU Andrew for actually answering my question! I thought it was 4 tons! "Workshop" and "Engineering Workshop" is what threw me. I think this was discussed quite a few years ago... since my copy of Merchants and Cruisers doesn't state otherwise... does a 4 ton "Workshop" give you a +1 (NOT stated in the rules) since a 6 ton Engineering shop gives you +2 (IS stated in the rules). I think I remember a discussion... "why spend money and space on a workshop if it doesn't give you any bonuses or benefits?" As a GM I simply made a house rule and gave it a +1 extrapolating from the larger engineering workshop... and assumed it was left out of the final draft.


But it's my understanding that MgT1 and MgT2 are NOT supposed to be compatible/interchangeable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
After all, Mongoose needs everyone to buy new books, otherwise they go out of business.

If that is the case, then I'll re-ask my second question.

If a 6 ton workshop gives a +2 bonus (yes, I accidentally type +1 in my original question) for 2 people, would it be within the rules for 3 ton workshop be installed on smaller ships and grant a +2 for a single person?

Follow up game-mechanics question on workshops...

Does each mechanic/engineer get to role their skill at a +2 separately while working in a workshop, or is the intent to simply grant a +2 on a single skill check IF you have 2 people working on fixing something. What I mean to say... Can 2 separate engineers be working on fixing 2 separate problems with a +2 to their skill checks individually, or is the intent of the rule/game mechanic use of a workshop for them to team up to give a +2 to a single task?
If the later is the case, do you not get a +2 on your skill check if you are the only person with engineer/mechanics skills? If the later is the case and there aren't two people in a workshop do you get any bonus?

Another curious quirk in the new rules... there is no paragraph on "aiding another player" under the skills chapter. Has this been located somewhere else in the new rules? Do you grant boon/bane now based on your "assist" roll? Or has that been dropped completely?
Because that matters when repairing a damage ship component. Can one engineer assist another, or does it require the 6 ton workshop now to get a bonus?

Anotherdilbert you answered a lot but not my real question... Andrew did.
However I must respectfully disagree with your statement "it has always been there".

Behold, 2 pages out of the very first Traveller book I ever purchased in early 1981 after being introduced to the game late in 1980... (after 2 weeks of saving my allowance) Traders and Gunboats. I love this little book!
My very first character was a Scout and I was lucking enough to get a scout courier in mustering out benefits. I flew around in a little scout ship that I called "Far Horizons" for almost the entire year of 1981. I know and love this little ship... such nostalgia.

http://imgur.com/3R445fW

http://imgur.com/MSTj4Tt

Yes, you are correct that in fact the small space(13) on the port side of the engine block is defined as laboratory and sensors, communications equipment, data banks and a crew lounge for detached scouts. It is approximately 7 1/2 tons... back when the spaces were ill defined... you just counted the squares. It has never been called a workshop. I supposed you can call it a brothel if you want, or a giant aquarium, or Swedish Bikini Team mud wrestling room. If I made the statement, "A Swedish Bikini team mud wrestling room was never part of a scout courier" would you say that I was wrong and that it's always been there pointing out the same sentence on page 16?
I'm teasing of course.
And you can stretch your interpretation of the rules and deck plans as far as you like. However...
A workshop has never been part of the design of a Scout Courier. Ever. If I'm wrong I'll admit it, but you must show me the deck plan and written description to back up your argument with the word "workshop" on the plans. Then I will agree with you, no worries, I admit it if I'm wrong.

Consequently by the way, I used this area as cargo space for my first character, not a private lounge for the crew. More money for me.
What you failed to point out in the original scout courier is space 8, the large main common area of about 10 tons. Which matters to me...

Bringing me back to my very first criticism of the new MgT2 type S... no common space.
The combination of the 6 ton workshop and NO common space in the new version of the Scout Courier is very confusing to me.



Again, I'll ask "why?" Why a 6 ton workshop when 90% of the time you will have a single engineer/mechanic as part of a scout crew, yet this ship has a space designed for 2 people. And it's never required one in the past (and yes I'm looking at pages 16 and 17 in Traders and Gunboats) and mega Traveller, and Traveller TNE, and GURPS Traveller, and T20, and finally MgT1 (8 tons of cargo... no workshop). It simply seems like such a random and weird addition when nothing like it has ever existed in the past.

Back to your point Anotherdilbert... if this was listed as a 6 ton "flex space" or general purpose bay, THAT would make more sense to me... but still no common space...
Also consequently, the 200 ton advanced scout (that is currently designed under MgT1 and that I'm converting to MgT2... which is what got me to review the new type S as a go-by in the first place... ) does in fact have a 4 ton general purpose bay that can be used to what ever the mission requires. It also has some additional spaces that can be rolled into a 6-8 ton "general purpose bay".

In any case Anotherdilbert,, I really, really appreciate your last statement that MgT2 is trying to recreate the original design of the LBB, (Is this true? Is this a fact of intent? Are you part of the rules committee at Mongoose or is this just your opinion? If you ARE part of the Mongoose team, then thank you for this attempt, if not, then your opinion seems valid enough anyway)... but wouldn't the new improved MgT2 scout need at least some common space if that were true? 10 tons in the original scout courier!

BTW.... I did re-read the new rules for commons space on page 21 and 22 of MgT2 High Guard. I was surprised to say the least. Common space is an option... Do the designers and operators of the 600 ton subsidized liner know about this rule?

So ok... I'll accept that part of the new game mechanics for ship designs under MgT2 DO NOT require galleys, lounges, or any other common space for passengers. Weird... but ok.

 

[Reynard]

Everyone always complain Traveller has been so static then each edition brings changes to expand especially in the various construction rules and we hear people complain things are different. A scout is a scout is a scout as long as the purpose remains the same no matter the guts inside. I enjoy the rule additions to ship construction and have been adding them to old and new ships making them more useful.

 

[AndrewW]

I think this was discussed quite a few years ago... since my copy of Merchants and Cruisers doesn't state otherwise... does a 4 ton "Workshop" give you a +1 (NOT stated in the rules) since a 6 ton Engineering shop gives you +2 (IS stated in the rules). I think I remember a discussion... "why spend money and space on a workshop if it doesn't give you any bonuses or benefits?"

Ask Ian Stead...

But it's my understanding that MgT1 and MgT2 are NOT supposed to be compatible/interchangeable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
After all, Mongoose needs everyone to buy new books, otherwise they go out of business.

They aren't meant to be identical, but easy to transition between the two versions.

If a 6 ton workshop gives a +2 bonus (yes, I accidentally type +1 in my original question) for 2 people, would it be within the rules for 3 ton workshop be installed on smaller ships and grant a +2 for a single person?

A lot of that space goes to shared equipment, while one person is working with one piece of equipment, another can be using a different piece of equipment.

Does each mechanic/engineer get to role their skill at a +2 separately while working in a workshop, or is the intent to simply grant a +2 on a single skill check IF you have 2 people working on fixing something. What I mean to say... Can 2 separate engineers be working on fixing 2 separate problems with a +2 to their skill checks individually, or is the intent of the rule/game mechanic use of a workshop for them to team up to give a +2 to a single task?
If the later is the case, do you not get a +2 on your skill check if you are the only person with engineer/mechanics skills? If the later is the case and there aren't two people in a workshop do you get any bonus?

Can be used separately, so each person gets a +2.

Again, I'll ask "why?" Why a 6 ton workshop when 90% of the time you will have a single engineer/mechanic as part of a scout crew, yet this ship has a space designed for 2 people.

The space isn't really designed for two people, but allows for up to 2 to work in their at the same time. The workshop was added to the Type S as the ship is commonly away on missions where support options don't exist so has to be able to handle any repairs that may be needed on its own.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Does Ian still work for Mongoose? I know these boards have pretty much shifted away from MgT1, but if he is still around I will ask him.

As AnotherDilbert pointed out, the original Type S use of the flex space for laboratories, sensors, communication equipment and data banks. But it was just that, a flexible space.
To me, this new MgT2 type S is now the new cannon. As written it is no longer a flex space. It simply has a workshop, like or not.
The Suliman has always had very long lonely missions on low tech worlds with little or no support. It has never needed 6 tons for a workshop until now.
I understand the thought behind giving the new cannon design a workshop, I just prefer the flexibility of the original. I'm just going to state IMTU that your new cannon Type S with a built-in workshop is simply a variant, one of the many variations you can have.
I'm also going to make a judgement call on the size of a workshop. If the game mechanics require 6 tons for 2 people, then it's simple enough to have a 3 ton workshop for a single person to get a +2 to their skill checks.
On the flip side you can have a 9 ton space for 3 people, or 30 tons for 10, or what ever your design requires.

All this is me trying to convert my MgT1 design for an advance scout over to the MgT2 rules. Since I based the design perimeters on the smaller 100 ton version, the 6 tons of workroom took my by surprise and I'm trying to figure out how to fit it in.

Now that AnotherDilbert pointed out that a galley and lounge are only suggestions, and in fact not even required... even on passenger liners, I might be able to squeeze a couple tons out of my common space and have a dedicated workshop.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, I just prefer the flexibility to chose what you components to install based on your needs.

That's all for now. I hope to have my "spreadsheet" design of the advance scout up for critiques by the end of this week.

 

[DickTurpin]

Would it be within the rules to have a 3 ton workshop on smaller starships so one engineer/mechanic can get a +1 their repair rolls?

I think it would be reasonable to do this. Drop the DM to +1 to reflect the missing equipment that cannot be crammed into this smaller workshop.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In any case Anotherdilbert,, I really, really appreciate your last statement that MgT2 is trying to recreate the original design of the LBB, (Is this true? Is this a fact of intent? Are you part of the rules committee at Mongoose or is this just your opinion?

I have no connection with Mongoose, I can only offer my own opinions.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As AnotherDilbert pointed out, the original Type S use of the flex space for laboratories, sensors, communication equipment and data banks. But it was just that, a flexible space.
To me, this new MgT2 type S is now the new cannon. As written it is no longer a flex space. It simply has a workshop, like or not.

A Workshop is just a room with some equipment.

It might have been a workshop when it left the factory some decades ago, but who knows what the space is used for now?

Note the LBB2 Scout had no tonnage set aside for "flex space", it was just added to the deck plans...

 

[Condottiere]

A workshop gives you easy access to specialized tools and materials, like a doctor's surgery, but you'll have to specify in what it's specialized in.

Prices and space requirements vary.

Bonuses can be applied to time, functionality, and/or quality.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

As AnotherDilbert pointed out, the original Type S use of the flex space for laboratories, sensors, communication equipment and data banks. But it was just that, a flexible space.
To me, this new MgT2 type S is now the new cannon. As written it is no longer a flex space. It simply has a workshop, like or not.

A Workshop is just a room with some equipment.

It might have been a workshop when it left the factory some decades ago, but who knows what the space is used for now?

Note the LBB2 Scout had no tonnage set aside for "flex space", it was just added to the deck plans...

Yeah, back in the good old days when internal spaces were ill defined (tonnage wise) we just counted squares.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

A workshop gives you easy access to specialized tools and materials, like a doctor's surgery, but you'll have to specify in what it's specialized in.

Prices and space requirements vary.

Bonuses can be applied to time, functionality, and/or quality.

Hold it... really?
Because in the description it sounded like a general works space to fix whatever you might need to fix.
I'm at work right now so I can't double check my book, but I've been reading from both MgT1 and MgT2 so they are kind of blending together.
So you would need 6 tons of space just to fix the Jump Drive, then a separate 6 tons of space to fix the power plan, 6 ton workshop for the maneuver drives, then 6 more tons of space to use mechanic checks to fix hull and other non-engine part to the ship, and a separate workshop for electronic devices?

How many tons of workshop would a ship need to cover everything that might need to be fixed on an extend tour in the wilderness?

I'm not sure this is a correct interpretation, but I could be wrong. I'll look at the new rules later again tonight. If that is the case, and a workshop is not general in nature, I'll drop the workshop like a hot pan and just go with time shifts to get the same +2 roll.
And I had just finalized the 200 ton design over lunch....

 

[Condottiere]

The rule book won't give you specific guidelines, but logic will tell you that the more intricate the mechanism is, the more specialized the tooling.

Also, size matters, in that both a larger workshop has all the components and tools needed, even if it's just based around a three dee printer.

And a six tonne workshop is likely inadequate if something goes wrong with a Tigress class dreadnought's jump drive.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

lol...
yeah, Type "S" and Tigress... slight size difference.
Mostly I'm interested in the listed game mechanics.
On small ships I don't think we need to worry about specifics. Any workshop should be enough to grant a +2 bonus on mall ships... at least 800 and below at the very least.
I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something in the new rules.
Because as i pointed out earlier, the "Workshop" in MgT1 is different from "Workshop" in MgT2 since the MgT2 version is basically the Engineering Workshop from MgT2.
The use of different names from version to version are a bit confusing, but now I think everyone knows the difference. However, I think the MgT2 workshop also covers "non-engineering" fixes like mechanic rolls, vehicle repairs, equipment fixes, etc... Otherwise MgT2 would have 2 separate types of workshops like MgT1

In any case...

everyone needs to remember that a workshop is mostly useless unless you have a couple tons of spare parts as well...

 

[phavoc]

Workshops are going to carry general equipment allowing for the widest range of repairs using the fewest pieces of equipment. I suspect the workshop is going to half full of parts bins, one or two workbenches, and 52nd century versions of pegboard holding tools.

And a place to hang a poster or two of your favorite space gal/guy/pup/cat/chirper pinup.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Aslan pin up model... lol

 

[Condottiere]

 

[steve98052]

. . .
I'm also going to make a judgement call on the size of a workshop. If the game mechanics require 6 tons for 2 people, then it's simple enough to have a 3 ton workshop for a single person to get a +2 to their skill checks.
On the flip side you can have a 9 ton space for 3 people, or 30 tons for 10, or what ever your design requires.
. . .

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily true. If the equipment necessary to gain the +2 to skill checks takes up 6 dtons, a 3 dton workshop isn't going to grant the +2. Maybe the workshop is 4 dtons worth of equipment (which is shareable, within limits) and 1 dton of work space per person, so that a 6 dton workshop grants +2 to two people, but a workshop for one still takes 5 dtons – but a workshop for three only takes 7 dtons. Or maybe the workshop is 2 dtons worth of equipment and 2 dtons of work space per person. Maybe sharing doesn't work as well beyond two people, or beyond four – but then maybe each per-person work space includes a complete set of the equipment that is used so often that it's not easily shared.

In short, maybe it's more complicated than a simple 3 dtons per person for a +2 bonus.

In larger ships, specialization comes into play. A pilot-astrogator-engineer-Scout can go solo if he or she wishes on the 100 dton Scout ship, a solo engineer can keeps the equipment in order on a 200 dton Free Trader or Far Trader, and one senior and one junior engineer might take care of slightly larger ships. But a big ship might have a chief engineer, a senior jump engineer and staff, a senior maneuver engineer and staff, a senior power plant engineer and staff, and a senior life support engineer and staff – each with their own sets of workshops, which might be considerably larger than 6 dtons, and useful only for jump, maneuver, power plant, life support, or general mechanics, but which provide even more than +2 when used by specialists in the appropriate departments. On the other hand, maybe the engineering machinery of big ships are more complicated than small ships (not just bigger), so that their larger and more specialized workshops are necessary for the same +2 that a small workshop on a small ship can provide.

Note that I'm not citing rules here, or proposing them – just pointing out that what the rules say about a 6-dton, two-person workshop don't give us enough information to say how they scale.