MgT 2e p. 36 Would Solar Panels be providing only the power for basic ship systems?

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

While digging through MgT HG 2e a thought concerning solar panel size calculation bubbled up.

Would the solar panel d-tons requirement of 10% of the power planet tonnage be enough to provide power for just the ship's basic systems?

 

[wbnc]

Hello all,

While digging through MgT HG 2e a thought concerning solar panel size calculation bubbled up.

Would the solar panel d-tons requirement of 10% of the power planet tonnage be enough to provide power for just the ship's basic systems?

There was a fairly involved discussion of this a while back. I' sure someone will find the thread sooner or later..I am not so good at "topic archeology/paleontology/necromancy."..

It was a pretty lively discussion if I recall correctly the one thing I remember most people agreed on was

1)conventional solar panels would not do the trick. too bulky and not nearly efficient enough
2) beyond Earth's orbit or a similar distance from any sol type star, the panels would need t be increasingly large due to diminished light reaching them.
3) any system that could be compact enough would be fragile and fairly complex.

I did some back of the envelope concepts using Quantum dot solar cells, and ultra-thin sheets of material similar to those used in solar Sails. You could fold down and roll up a solar panel large enough, but it would be rather fragile. maneuvering with it deployed would be a bad idea, and you would need to combine several advanced materials technologies to create it...the technologies are cutting edge for our TL, but should be more common by TL-12-14

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PST wbnc,

IIRC I was part of that lively discussion.

Hello all,

While digging through MgT HG 2e a thought concerning solar panel size calculation bubbled up.

Would the solar panel d-tons requirement of 10% of the power planet tonnage be enough to provide power for just the ship's basic systems?

There was a fairly involved discussion of this a while back. I' sure someone will find the thread sooner or later..I am not so good at "topic archeology/paleontology/necromancy."..

It was a pretty lively discussion if I recall correctly the one thing I remember most people agreed on was

1)conventional solar panels would not do the trick. too bulky and not nearly efficient enough
2) beyond Earth's orbit or a similar distance from any sol type star, the panels would need t be increasingly large due to diminished light reaching them.
3) any system that could be compact enough would be fragile and fairly complex.

I did some back of the envelope concepts using Quantum dot solar cells, and ultra-thin sheets of material similar to those used in solar Sails. You could fold down and roll up a solar panel large enough, but it would be rather fragile. maneuvering with it deployed would be a bad idea, and you would need to combine several advanced materials technologies to create it...the technologies are cutting edge for our TL, but should be more common by TL-12-14

I agree that today's conventional solar panels probably will not do the trick, however Traveller's conventional solar panels are apparently done with better material. Like the jump drive how the Traveller solar panels can perform as they do has not be explained.

Thank you for the response.

 

[Condottiere]

Solar panels are overpowered in Traveller.

There does need to have a fixed energy output per square metre, and of course, how much hull volume that represents.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PST Condottiere,

Solar panels are overpowered in Traveller.

There does need to have a fixed energy output per square metre, and of course, how much hull volume that represents.

I know in my archive of games is a rule for the construction of solar panels that include surface area, volume, mass, power, and other bits. So far my review TNE/T4 FF&S, and GURPS Traveller/Vehicles has not found the material. My other games are in storage so I have not been able to dig through any of them.

Hopefully, I'll stumble on the rule set soon.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

TNE FF&S, p65: Solar Arrays.
MT Referee's Manual, p64: Solar Cells.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There was a fairly involved discussion of this a while back. I' sure someone will find the thread sooner or later..I am not so good at "topic archeology/paleontology/necromancy."..

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119491&start=80

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

There was a fairly involved discussion of this a while back. I' sure someone will find the thread sooner or later..I am not so good at "topic archeology/paleontology/necromancy."..

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119491&start=80

Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

Could the solar panel size be related to keeping the high efficiency batteries charged?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

It was discussed a bit around here:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=908521#p908521

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PST AnotherDilbert,

Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

It was discussed a bit around here:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=908521#p908521

Thank you for providing the link, as usual I missed what I was looking for in a post, if I had been looking for someone else I would have found your comment. Which is probably why the thought of basic ship systems rose from the depths of my memory.

 

[wbnc]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

There was a fairly involved discussion of this a while back. I' sure someone will find the thread sooner or later..I am not so good at "topic archeology/paleontology/necromancy."..

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119491&start=80

Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

Could the solar panel size be related to keeping the high efficiency batteries charged?

I don't think there are any limits on where the power generated by solar panels could be directed. There really aren't any limits placed on what you can do with the power in the rules. it describes the system as being able to provide basic systems and enough reserve power for Thrust one if there is no main power system present.so if you have a functioning main power system and a solar panel deployed no reason why the reserve power can't be directed to the ships batteries.


I would imagine as a battery recharge system they would be rather useful.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello wbnc,

Hello AnotherDilbert,

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119491&start=80

Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

Could the solar panel size be related to keeping the high efficiency batteries charged?

I don't think there are any limits on where the power generated by solar panels could be directed. There really aren't any limits placed on what you can do with the power in the rules. it describes the system as being able to provide basic systems and enough reserve power for Thrust one if there is no main power system present.so if you have a functioning main power system and a solar panel deployed no reason why the reserve power can't be directed to the ships batteries.

I would imagine as a battery recharge system they would be rather useful.

From p. 36

"Solar Panels
Extendible solar panels provide backup power for a ship’s power plant. They are typically installed in scout or mining ships, extending their range and endurance.

The tonnage consumed by enough solar panels required to power a ship is equal to 10% that of the main power plant, to a minimum of 0.5 tons. Solar panels cost MCr0.1 per ton

If the panels are fitted to a ship without a power plant, then assume the (non–existent) power plant is sized to the ship’s basic systems and a Thrust 1 manoeuvre drive. A ship equipped with solar panels consumes power plant fuel at one–quarter the normal rate so long as it is only engaged in minimal manoeuvring and does not fire any weapons. Minimal manoeuvring does not include long periods at full thrust, so solar power alone is useless for most commercial and military vessels.

No power plant fuel is consumed, and endurance is considered infinite, if the ship is not manoeuvring or refining fuel. Jump drives cannot be engaged with solar panels deployed."

My understanding is that a hull without a power plant using solar panel's must be the equivalent size to a hull with a ship's basic systems power requirement and a Maneuver Drive capable of 1G of thrust.

TL 12 100 d-ton Ship's Basic Systems Power 20 + 1G Maneuver Drive Power 10 = 30 Power
TL 12 Fusion Power Plant Power per ton 12 = 30 Power / 15 = 2 d-tons
The TL 12 100 d-ton hull's solar panel would be 0.5 d-tons since 2 x 0.1 = 0.2 d-tons which falls below the minimum of 0.5 d-tons.

My understanding is that spacecraft deploying solar panels are either using just enough thrust to stay in on place or barely moving through a system. In both cases the thrust is a fraction of 1G and to position so the solar panels are positioned to gather the most energy.

Battery systems being recharged by solar panels are in use today for off-the-grid living.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Could the solar panel size be related to keeping the high efficiency batteries charged?

I could not imagine why not?

The solar panels produce electrical power (a bit unclear how much), we must be able to use it for anything we want?

 

[wbnc]

Hello wbnc,

Hello AnotherDilbert,



Yep, I was at least part of one fairly involved discussion since I started the one you linked to. I did check through the thread but did not find a comment mentioning of what the panels provided power for.

Could the solar panel size be related to keeping the high efficiency batteries charged?

I don't think there are any limits on where the power generated by solar panels could be directed. There really aren't any limits placed on what you can do with the power in the rules. it describes the system as being able to provide basic systems and enough reserve power for Thrust one if there is no main power system present.so if you have a functioning main power system and a solar panel deployed no reason why the reserve power can't be directed to the ships batteries.

I would imagine as a battery recharge system they would be rather useful.

From p. 36

"Solar Panels
Extendible solar panels provide backup power for a ship’s power plant. They are typically installed in scout or mining ships, extending their range and endurance.

The tonnage consumed by enough solar panels required to power a ship is equal to 10% that of the main power plant, to a minimum of 0.5 tons. Solar panels cost MCr0.1 per ton

If the panels are fitted to a ship without a power plant, then assume the (non–existent) power plant is sized to the ship’s basic systems and a Thrust 1 manoeuvre drive. A ship equipped with solar panels consumes power plant fuel at one–quarter the normal rate so long as it is only engaged in minimal manoeuvring and does not fire any weapons. Minimal manoeuvring does not include long periods at full thrust, so solar power alone is useless for most commercial and military vessels.

No power plant fuel is consumed, and endurance is considered infinite, if the ship is not manoeuvring or refining fuel. Jump drives cannot be engaged with solar panels deployed."

My understanding is that a hull without a power plant using solar panel's must be the equivalent size to a hull with a ship's basic systems power requirement and a Maneuver Drive capable of 1G of thrust.

TL 12 100 d-ton Ship's Basic Systems Power 20 + 1G Maneuver Drive Power 10 = 30 Power
TL 12 Fusion Power Plant Power per ton 12 = 30 Power / 15 = 2 d-tons
The TL 12 100 d-ton hull's solar panel would be 0.5 d-tons since 2 x 0.1 = 0.2 d-tons which falls below the minimum of 0.5 d-tons.

My understanding is that spacecraft deploying solar panels are either using just enough thrust to stay in on place or barely moving through a system. In both cases the thrust is a fraction of 1G and to position so the solar panels are positioned to gather the most energy.

Battery systems being recharged by solar panels are in use today for off-the-grid living.

Yeah that's the write-up as it stands now. thanks for putting it up
solar panels seem to be an area that could use some refinement. not that they are unworkable as is. bit giving a Power pt per ton rating to allow for a ship or station to use a solar array as it's primary system would be spiffy.
as it is Solar arrays seem to be slated as emergency backups, There are a few situations i can think of where they wouldbe usefu as a primary system.

Very few high ports would need more than A solar array, and batteries with a secondary system that is fired up to provide power for its main weapons to repel an attack. I would reduce long-term operation costs by reducing fuel consumption. Same for a prospector that may loiter for months while drones ad scout craft look for a deposit worth mining.

And let us not forget low berths and emergency low berths that are used as survival pods...a solar array that can provide enough power to keep them going indefinitely seems to be a system that would be a must have for a passenger vessel. Devoting a few tons to solar arrays as a trade off for indefinate endurance for the low berths seems like a good idea.

 

[Condottiere]

The moment it was decided to give actual output figures for power plants, you needed to specify how much energy solar panels produce, because linking them not only produces more power than they should, it's also variable depending on the technological level of the fusion reactor.

 

[phavoc]

Solar panels should be pretty useless in most systems if they are say 1.5AU or beyond the system primary. Larger suns / brighter suns would have a larger radius, but that may be overcomplicating things. I would be fine with a distance band and a percentage drop off (or increase) of the panels.

I'd also be interested to see power output capabilities per size of deployed panel. Probably keep it at a per Dton power output (affected by TL). And how would ship combat effect them? Should they be considered stowed and protected unless deployed? Any sort of combat externally, like a missile hit or even a few laser strikes, could easily shred the panels while even missing the ship itself.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning phavoc,

Solar panels should be pretty useless in most systems if they are say 1.5AU or beyond the system primary. Larger suns / brighter suns would have a larger radius, but that may be overcomplicating things. I would be fine with a distance band and a percentage drop off (or increase) of the panels.

I'd also be interested to see power output capabilities per size of deployed panel. Probably keep it at a per Dton power output (affected by TL). And how would ship combat effect them? Should they be considered stowed and protected unless deployed? Any sort of combat externally, like a missile hit or even a few laser strikes, could easily shred the panels while even missing the ship itself.

Since I am unaware of what 1 MgT Power Point equals in MW my examples are using 3 MW. I also know that the use of MT and TNE are probably not very helpful but the best way I can think of.

In TNE a TL 12+ fixed mounted Solar Array generating 3 MW of power, if I've followed the directions correctly in the Outer Zone has an area of 750,000 m^2, volume of 2,148 d-tons, and costs Cr757,500,000. Using a solar array in the Habitable Zone the system has an area of 7,500 m^2, volume of 27 d-tons, and costs Cr15,000,000. A ship using a solar array in The Inner Zone has an area of 75 m^2, volume of 2, 8 d-tons, and costs Cr8,250,000. A retractable array's volume and cost doubles.

MT TL 12+ solar cells require an area of approximately 37.1 m^3, 0.371 m^3 or approximately 0.03 d-tons, and has a cost of Cr3,710,000.

In my opinion solar panels, solar arrays, or solar cells would be worthless in combat since they as pointed would be shredded by weapon hits. Okay, they would act in a similar manner to a sand cloud in my opinion.

 

[Condottiere]

Solar panels really do need two values, one for surface area, and the other for actual volume.

You can always reinforce the (or is it add an armoured bulkhead) the panels to withstand acceleration.

 

[snrdg121408]

Afternoon PST Condottiere

Solar panels really do need two values, one for surface area, and the other for actual volume.

You can always reinforce the (or is it add an armoured bulkhead) the panels to withstand acceleration.

In my TNE example a solar array the values given are the surface area is for the collector panels and the volume is the total for the solar collector panels and solar cells. I did forgot to mention that my values were rounded as follows round(2.14 + 5.36,0) = 7.5 = 8.0.

The TNE solar collector panels by themselves in my example are:

Outer Zone: Area = 750,000 m^2 and Volume = 30,000 m^3
Habitable Zone: Area = 7,500 m^2 and Volume = 300 m^3
Inner Zone: Area = 750 m^2 and Volume = 40 m^3.

Solar panels on the ISS appear to be, at least in my opinion, a dispersed structure which means tonnage is doubled. If the panels are attached to the hull reinforcement might help. Solar panels configured like the arrays used by the ISS reinforcement would not, in my opinion, be a lot of help.

My take is that MgT HG indicates that solar panels are used to extend a scout's endurance and as mentioned in the thread an alternate power system if the power plant stops working.

 

[Condottiere]

We know what they're supposed to do, but directly tying them to power plant output means that output will be more than should be possible, and we can add more and create enough juice to fully power the ship.