Medieval Europe Settings

[soltakss]

I've been thinking about Medieval Europe again, having just watched Ivanhoe on Christmas Telly.

Stupor Mundi covers the period after Richard and John, his reign and that of Henry III overlap whereas the events of Mythic Russia happen over a hundred years afterwards. So, this should extend Stupor Mundi to cover the preceeding period in Medieval England.

From a British point of view, you've got a lot happening around this time.

There are the Crusades, Richard's absence, John's rule of England and his attempted usurping, Robin Hood's opposition to John, Richard's imprisonment, Blondel's search for him, the persecution of Jews, Richard's and John's wars in France, the Magna Carta and rebellions of the Barons, loss of lands in France, politicking with Pope Innocent III and Stupor Mundi and so on. If you wanted to include Ballads and Stories, then Ivanhoe fits in quite nicely as do the exploits of Robin Hood, even if they are not historical fact.

With the exception of the Crusades and the wars in France, the English concentrated on England during this period, so for a Fantasy England game this is a good time.

1160 Robin Hood born
1188 Richard the Lionheart becomes a Crusader
1189 Richard the Lionheart King of England
1189 Richard bans Jews from Coronation as a Crusader
1189-1190 Riots against Jews in London and York
1190 Jews expelled from Bury St. Edmunds
1190 Richard occupies Sicily, recognises Tancred as King, rescues his sister Joan
1191 Richard conquers Cyprus
1192 Richard settles with Saladin
1192 Richard captured by Leopold of Austria and was handed over to Henry VI the Holy Roman Emperor
1194 England raises a ransom of 150,000 Marks
1194 Richard returns to England
1194 Jews were taxed extra, Ordinance of the Jewry
1194 Richard leaves for France to fight Philip II
1199 John I King of England
1205 John and Bishops elect different Archbishops of Canterbury, Pope Innocent III elects another one
1207 England under Interdiction
1209 John I excommunicated
1210 John invades Wales, then makes peace
1213 Emgland becomes a Papal Feudal State
1215 Magna Carta signed later declared invalid by Pope Innocent III)
1215 Pope Innocent III makes Jews wear badges
1215-1217 First Barons' War
1216 Louis of France invades in support of Barons
1216 John I dies
1216 Henry III made King of England
1218 Jews in England to wear oblong white badge
1221 Joan of England, Henry's sister, marries Alexander II of Scotland
1234 Jews expelled from Newcastle
1235 Jews expelled from Wycombe
1235 Isabella, daughter of King John and sister of Henry III marries Stupor Mundi
1236 Jews expelled from Southampton
1242 Jews expelled from Berkhamsted
1244 Jews expelled from Newbury
1247 Robin Hood dies

During this time, there was generally peace in Wales and Scotland, with Llywelyn the Great uniting Wales and William I and Alexander II ruling without much interference from England, apart from siding with the barons against King John.

There is a Stupor Mundi Timeline at http://www.stupormundi.it/inglese/Chronology.htm which is roughly in line with the time of Robin Hood.

Of course, there's a lot happening in Europe at this time as well. States form and break up, Kings come and go with alarming regularity, monarchs are excommunicated and welcomed back with as much regularity and the maps have to be redrawn all the time. It makes it hard to write up timelines for the whole of Europe.

Just some random thoughts, really. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Roleplaying Robin Hood sounds intriguing to me. And the Crusades, too. I did not mention the Crusades too much in Stupor Mundi because of political correctness (actually I only described the one that did not result in bloodshed), but the setting is full of exploitable opportunities.

I think you need a good Jewish magic system for Fantasy England. I left it out in Stupor Mundi for lack of realistic information, although Hebraism was rather influent in the lands of the HRE at that time, but if you plan to have characters involved in the persecutions (on either side) then you must provide some characteristic Jewish Magic. Cabalism? Golems? Also note that letters play an important role in the legend of the Golem, so it is not impossible to have Jewish Rune Magic.

 

[Sinisalo]

1244 Jews expelled from Newbury

You're joking...I spent eighteen years in Newbury. I'm a mad history buff, combed the battlefields of the town, looked up sites to do with Jack o'Newbury and the Newbury Skirmish, etc,etc. I obviously wouldn't expect a plaque up ;P but...but...what are your sources?

 

[medievaladventures]

If you are interested in running a fun psuedo-historical campaign, you should get a copy of the old Robin Hood campaign book. You can pick it up used for very little money. It was by Iron Crown Enterprises for Rolemaster, MERP, and Fantasy Hero, but you could easily use it with Runequest. The timeline in the book runs from 1066-1216. The book includes overviews of the history and society, tips on running outlaw adventures and two campaigns with 5 written adventures for each of the campaigns. Campaign one "is set against a background of civil war in England, and the struggle between King Stephen and the Empress Maud to dominate and rule the country." The players begin the campaign in 1138, but the timeline shows information for 1135-1142. It isn't really a Robin Hood campaign, but is a fun one nonetheless. The second campaign begins in 1197/1198 and has a timeline showing information leading up to the starting year from 1189-1198. It is a more traditional Robin Hood campaign set in Sherwood forest.

 

[soltakss]

1244 Jews expelled from Newbury

You're joking...I spent eighteen years in Newbury. I'm a mad history buff, combed the battlefields of the town, looked up sites to do with Jack o'Newbury and the Newbury Skirmish, etc,etc. I obviously wouldn't expect a plaque up ;P but...but...what are your sources?

Joking? Not at all.

The almighty Wikipedia is the source here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England#Increasing_Persecution.2C_1200s.

Petitions were accordingly sent to the king in many instances to remove his Jews from the boroughs, and they were expelled from Bury St. Edmunds in 1190, Newcastle in 1234, Wycombe in 1235, Southampton in 1236, Berkhamsted in 1242, Newbury in 1244. Jews were expelled from the lands of Queen Dowager Eleanor in January 1275 ( which included towns such as Guildford).

Looking for other sources through Google immediately gives me:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CS...ts=93psw17GF_&sig=d9vO1c3gy8kalnu1uNyDZxnkRrU
http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-uk/pre-1290/1290communities/se1290.htm gives the expulsion as 1242.
http://www.medievalarthistory.co.uk/The_History_of_the_Jews_in_England.html
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...df+jews+newbury+1244&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=uk

So, "I spent eighteen years in Newbury. I'm a mad history buff, combed the battlefields of the town, looked up sites to do with Jack o'Newbury and the Newbury Skirmish, etc,etc. I obviously wouldn't expect a plaque up ;P but...but...what are your sources?" You're joking, look at the above sources.

There's an awful lot of history that is conveniently forgotten. The persecution of Jews throughour English history is one of them.

From a gaming point of view, it is perfect. It gives a historical boogeyman, which the Jews certainly were, it gives a huge amount of roleplaying potential and it makes the players think about what happened and what they should do. You only have to read Ivanhoe, for instance, to see how entrenched certain ideas were. Look at the "legend" of the boy in Lincoln who was supposedly sacrificed by Jews, that survives in a number of folk tales and songs even today.

 

[soltakss]

Roleplaying Robin Hood sounds intriguing to me. And the Crusades, too. I did not mention the Crusades too much in Stupor Mundi because of political correctness (actually I only described the one that did not result in bloodshed), but the setting is full of exploitable opportunities.

That's probably one of the reasons Frederick II wasn't liked by the Pope - he didn't seem to care much for killing lots of Muslims.

But the Crusades are very important for earlier medieval settings. You could set up a campaign based around the Crusades, but that would be dull. Setting a campaign about certain events in the Crusades or certain people in the Crusades would be more interesting.

For me, they are a useful event that influence other areas. So, Richard clears off to the Crusades and leaves England to its own devices. Robin Hood was on the Crusades with King Richard but returns. Richard is captured returning from the Crusades. Prince John governs in his absence and must raise taxes for the Crusades as well as for his own enrichment. Many scholars go to the Holy Land as a result of the Crusades and meet with new ideas from Islamic and Hebraic teachings and bring them back.

I think you need a good Jewish magic system for Fantasy England. I left it out in Stupor Mundi for lack of realistic information, although Hebraism was rather influent in the lands of the HRE at that time, but if you plan to have characters involved in the persecutions (on either side) then you must provide some characteristic Jewish Magic. Cabalism? Golems? Also note that letters play an important role in the legend of the Golem, so it is not impossible to have Jewish Rune Magic.

I did write one up for Mythic Russia, but it didn't really work in that setting. It might work better in a Stupor Mundi setting, though.

Roughly, the idea was that Hebraic and Islamic magic is gained through reading and understanding the Holy Books. The same principle can also be used for Christian Scholars who read and understand the Bible and Apocryphae. You have a skill Understand (Holy Book) that acts in all ways like Lore (Specific Theology) but gives you access to some divine spells spells from that book.

So, Christians might have Understand (Old Testament) which gives them some spells, Understand (New Testament) that gives them other spells. Jews would have Understand (Torah), Understand (Talmud) and so on. Muslims have Understand (Koran), Understand ([Hadith]), Understand ([Sunnah]) and Understand ([Sirah]) where Hadith are Commentaries on Sacred Texts, Sunnah are The Ways and Deeds of Mohammed and Sirah cover the Life of Mohammed.

Each sect could have its own sacred texts and also have special knowledge of the standard sacred texts. So, for example, the Sect of St George would have the Life of St George as a Holy Text and would get some spells from that but would also have special understanding of the New Testament and may get a spell such as Preserve Chastity.

The following are HeroQuest examples, but they should give you an idea of what I wanted, I got bogged down in working out which spells would relate to which book and also in trying to be vague and unspecific so as not to offend people. The second issue may be the killer of this approach.

Of course, to do this fully would mean researching many different sects of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, something for which I don't have the skill, time nor inclination.

Christianity

Understand Old Testament (Blessing of the Patriarchs, Righteous Anger, Follow the Law)

Understand New Testament (Cast Out Devils, Heal the Sick, Endure Persecution, Turn the Other Cheek, Die for One's Faith)

St. George

Understand New Testament (Preserve Chastity, Reassure Innocents)

Understand Life of St. George (Armour of Faith, Defend Innocents, Lord Guide my Spear, Sword of Glory)

Judaism

Understand Torah (Blessing of the Patriarchs, Chosen People, Endure Suffering)

Understand Nevi'im /Prophets (Keep Apart, Follow the Written Law, Righteous Anger)

Understand Ketuvim/Writings (Endure Exile, Keep the Faith, Understand History, Accept New Ways, Renounce New Ways, Strength From Example)

Understand Talmud (Bless Food, Bless Marriage, Debate the Law, Interpret the Law, Follow Oral Law, Punish Transgressors, Understand Rituals)

Kabbalah

Understand Torah (Lashes of Fire, Meditation, Names of God, Sacred Numerology)

Understand Talmud (Embody [Wisdom, Insight, Cognition, Strength, Power, Inexorableness, Justice, Right, Love, Mercy)

Understand Zohar (Achieve Ecstatic State, Achieve New Soul, Know Paradise, Know Hell, Two Aspects of God, Trinity of Godhead, See Visions, Secret Knowledge)

Islam

Understand Koran (Help the Poor, Hospitality, Jihad, Remain Modest, Ritual Prayers, Tolerate Religions)

 

[RosenMcStern]

Roughly, the idea was that Hebraic and Islamic magic is gained through reading and understanding the Holy Books. The same principle can also be used for Christian Scholars who read and understand the Bible and Apocryphae. You have a skill Understand (Holy Book) that acts in all ways like Lore (Specific Theology) but gives you access to some divine spells from that book.

Like Malkioni grimoires? One thing I did not appreciate in Mythic Russia is that it uses Feats and Affinities for Saints and pagan Gods alike. This is not the case in HQ, and this simplification actually makes roleplaying a bit dull. Doesn't the shift from polytheism to monotheism affect the way you worship your deity(es)?

However, there is one flaw in your system. You are assuming that a worshiper can read. But not all monks, friars, etc. could, not to mention the poor Templars, were literate. Under your rules, how could they cast magic?

One thing that I do not like very much in the divine magic of MRQ is that you use a Lore skill to cast magic. Divine Magic should have no casting roll, or if you want to use a casting skill, then your Piety or your Faith must be tested, not how well you studied your Doctrine.

 

[soltakss]

Yes, like Malkioni Grimoires.

This wouldn't be a replacement for normal Christianity etc, but instead is an alternative way for scholars to gain magic through books.

Although many Christians were illiterate, many Jews and Muslims were not. In any case, even those who were illiterate tended to learn their holy books, many being able to recite from memory whole tracts of holy texts.

The vast majotiry of Christians would still gain worship through Saints and Divine Cults.

But, some scholars would be able to pull magic directly from the holy texts through their superior knowledge of them. This may be though reading them or through having committed them to memory.

I don't think the Divine Cult model of Saints or deities really works for Judaism or Islam.

 

[RosenMcStern]

This wouldn't be a replacement for normal Christianity etc, but instead is an alternative way for scholars to gain magic through books.

Cool. But that's also another skill to learn to cast magic.

Although many Christians were illiterate, many Jews and Muslims were not.

Most of them in fact

In any case, even those who were illiterate tended to learn their holy books, many being able to recite from memory whole tracts of holy texts.

Absolutely yes. But this I would call Lore(Islam) rather than Understand(Koran).

The vast majotiry of Christians would still gain worship through Saints and Divine Cults.

But, some scholars would be able to pull magic directly from the holy texts through their superior knowledge of them. This may be though reading them or through having committed them to memory.

What is the difference in game mechanics in RQ? I can see it in HQ, but not in MRQ.

I don't think the Divine Cult model of Saints or deities really works for Judaism or Islam.

Yes, in fact I was tempted to introduce something different for Muslims, but in the end I just supposed they would just be more inclined to Sorcery use.