M Drives and Dark Energy

I have always just used the Glow N Go and it did'nt work as a weapon would just move the ship, Mine even didn't have to turn around to brake. Just throw the reverse switch, and you would start stopping then back up. Never worried about a method for it to work that way of not. I never recieved a question on how it worked, but my players still had fun. I even have the visiable light shown as different colors so anyone behind then knows what is happening.

Green = Ship is in Forward Propulsion mode.
Red = Ship is in Braking/Reverse Propulsion mode.

So in my game no issues it still works, engineer may have to fix the dodad, or the thingamajig. Sometimes even fix or relace the whatchamacallit, everything made up on the spot just for the situation.
 
heron61 said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
Reynard said:
A neutrino or dark matter drive produces no noticeable exhaust. Those 'exhaust ports' might be expelling other waste products that are less than lethal.
Why is that an advantage?
From a game perspective, it makes turrets and bay weapons useful, since they aren't completely outclassed by the ship's maneuver drive, and from a setting perspective, it allows ships to use their m-drive near planets w/o risk of vaporizing other ships, space stations, or portions of cities. A fusion drive would be fairly dangerous, while a matter-antimatter drive on a 100 Ton Scout would outclass the weapons of a 50,000 ton warship.
Assuming the 50,000 ton warship wasn't also powered by antimatter, which it probably would be. I pretty much agree with you there, I've seen many episodes of Star Trek, where a starship gets blown up, and their are identifiable pieces of starship floating all over space, they mention that these ships are powered by antimatter and then they forget all about it when these ships are destroyed in combat. I liked the classic Star Trek episodes, because they never showed the starships getting destroyed, they just show the characters watching the main view screen and covering their eyes when there is a blinding white light signaling the destruction of an antimatter powered starship is space. The explosion would be indiscribable, and that's just the visible light, the explosion would consist mostly of gamma rays as plasma that used to be the starship, there would be no way to determine which ship just blew up. I think a fusion drive is a lot tamer My setting Triplanetary uses fusion drives, they come in two varieties, fast and slow. The fast fusion drive incudes a power plant and reaction mass consisting of hydrogen, the hydrogen is not fused, it is mixed with tritium and deuterium that is fused to release energy, only a tiny amount is so fused, the power plant can only fuse a small amount at a time anyway, and a lot of hydrogen is mixed with this fusing plasma, producing an exhaust that is hotter that the exhaust of the space shuttle, but since this exhaust consists of hydrogen gas, its specific impulse is higher than the water vapor you get when you burn hydrogen with oxygen. Having a pure hydrogen exhaust produces enough sustained thrust for the ship to get into orbit, but only just, the ship uses half its reactiom mass supply to achieve orbit, about 20.5 minutes of multiple g thrust and that's it for the fast drive. The slow drive is more fuel efficient, its exhaust is higher velocity and it mixes a much smaller amount of hydrogen with the fusing plasma to create a high velocity thrust with a gradual acceleration, ranging from 1% to 6% of the acceleration due to Earth's gravity. Players can spend from about a week to a month travelong from one inner planet in the same system to another, most of that journey occurs in bear zero g, but I figure is astronauts can survive spending 1 month in the International Space Station, then some magical artificial grav plates aren't needed, the character just have to learn to move around the ship in zero gravity, no big deal, our astronauts manage it just fine!
 
"our astronauts manage it just fine!"

They need medical attention and physical therapy when they get back. Zero g will always be harsh on nearly any higher Earth life form. Artificial gravity will be THE technology!
 
Reynard said:
"our astronauts manage it just fine!"

They need medical attention and physical therapy when they get back. Zero g will always be harsh on nearly any higher Earth life form. Artificial gravity will be THE technology!

Thats one of the reason's I liked 2001, it showed the characters in the spinning ship, and having the centrifical force to simulate gravity. I feel that will be used when mankind heads out to other planets, with astronauts having a detailed phsio therapy/exercise program to help combat 0 g enviroment issues.
 
Jacqual said:
Reynard said:
"our astronauts manage it just fine!"

They need medical attention and physical therapy when they get back. Zero g will always be harsh on nearly any higher Earth life form. Artificial gravity will be THE technology!

Thats one of the reason's I liked 2001, it showed the characters in the spinning ship, and having the centrifical force to simulate gravity. I feel that will be used when mankind heads out to other planets, with astronauts having a detailed phsio therapy/exercise program to help combat 0 g enviroment issues.
A month in zero g is nothing, astronauts do it all the time!
 
Except for the gradual bone, muscle and cardio degeneration. It doesn't happen graphically and dramatically any more than cancer suddenly appears on monitors at it's outset. We usually hear astronauts doing long term zero g exposure to test the effects and possible therapies to reduce but not eliminate the effects. Zero g is and always will be a bad condition for humans. So it means 2300 spin or Traveller AG.
 
Reynard said:
Except for the gradual bone, muscle and cardio degeneration. It doesn't happen graphically and dramatically any more than cancer suddenly appears on monitors at it's outset. We usually hear astronauts doing long term zero g exposure to test the effects and possible therapies to reduce but not eliminate the effects. Zero g is and always will be a bad condition for humans. So it means 2300 spin or Traveller AG.
Have you seen my 1600 ton lab ship design? I just submitted it along with most of my Triplanetary setting, I had to cut out some parts to get it under 4000 words as required. The 1600 ton lab ship rotates 3 times a minute to create 1 Earth gravity on the habitation ring, it costs 685,775,000 credits, has 43 staterooms, and cannot land on a planet's surface, I'm planning on lower tech version of this, its good for going from low orbit to low orbit, has a slow fusion powered reaction drive, I would probably substitute a TL 8 scout ship for the shuttle just so somebody can reach a planet's surface. Probably in the Triplanetary setting, this would be more of a luxury passenger liner. Most people would rather just deal with weightlessness as its cheaper, most of the action is on a planet's surface anyway, the ship is just a means to get there.
 
Weightlessness isn't cheap if you incur medical bills for the experience. Just like low berths though, you might take a chance on hurting or killing yourself to save a few creds.
 
Reynard said:
"our astronauts manage it just fine!"

They need medical attention and physical therapy when they get back. Zero g will always be harsh on nearly any higher Earth life form. Artificial gravity will be THE technology!
I'd expect that any long term space faring civilization would have developed drugs or gene therapies that would eliminate or at least greatly reduce such problems. Sure, at TL 8, they are a big deal, but less so at TL 10+
 
Reynard said:
Weightlessness isn't cheap if you incur medical bills for the experience. Just like low berths though, you might take a chance on hurting or killing yourself to save a few creds.
Not a few, a ship large enough to give you a full gravity rotation is 100 meters in radius and it rotates 3 times a minute, and because its such a spindly structure, it can't land, and My campaign doesn't have small craft, that is spaceships that can land and take off from a planet with less that 100 dtons of volume. There are no fighters, launches, ship's boats, pinnaces, or modular cutters, the main reason for this is the reaction drives I use require about the same amount of fuel that is set aside for the Jump Drive in a standard TL9+ campaign. There are no reactionless maneuver drives in Triplanetary except for a stolen starship, the 1600 ton lab ship, which came with 2 ships boats, and a fuel shuttle. The thieves who stole the starship, didn't want to be found by authorities, and their expertise was somewhat lacking in the understanding of how a maneuver drive or a Jump drive works, they came from a tech level 8 world with a lot of off-world contacts, they were expert enough to steal a starship, but they didn't know how a maneuver drive works or how to repair one, they did know how a fusion reactor worked and understood enough about that to direct the work of Earth physicists which helped them build working viable fusion reactors as early as the 1960s in their altered timeline, from these reactors, they build a version of the Nerva rocket powered by a much safer fusion reactor with little permanent radioactive fallout particles instead of the highly radioactive fission reactors that were initially envisioned, this led to an early mass break out into space in the 1970s, and since the planets Mars and Venus were habitable, this led to tech level 8 pre maneuver drive versions of the common spacecraft, which instead of being propelled by maneuver drives are propelled by fusion rockets, a fast one for getting off the planet's surface and a slow one for traveling around in the Solar System. It takes about a week to a month to travel from Earth to either Mars or Venus. Most people who undertake such a journey spend a lot of time on Mars or Venus before returning to Earth. A lot of people use working passage, that is people serve as temporary crew aboard a spaceship to reduce the cost of interplanetary passage, usually the journey is one way, people are migrants rather than tourists, a ticket passage is on the order of buying a new house, and often a mortgage type loan is required for most people to afford that passage. In modern currency this is about $100,000 to $500,000, the low berths are cheaper but risky, and only the most desperate would use them, and they are illegal in the United States due to the high death rates and the liability involved with people dying, but third world countries like China are often seen using them to get their people to Mars or Venus.

It turns out the starship thieves new something about how to build a low berth chamber as well, as their prior business before they stole that lab ship was in people smuggling, and it was easier to do when people were in low berths. One big method for getting to Mars or Venus was to have a large corporation pay for the passage with usually a contractual agreement to pay off the cost during term of employment, labor laws in most civilized countries don't allow for indentured servants, but the salaries paid to employees sent to Mars or Venus were usually low, above minimum wage, but not a whole lot. Most corporations prefer to hire the planet's natives for the low skilled labor, the Earth people brought over usually rate in the mid to high skilled category, that is they have skills that cannot be easily taught to low tech natives of Venus or Mars. Mars has a number of high tech artifacts, some of them ranging from TL 9 to 15, but the scientists are studying those, and can't quite understand how some of them work, taking them apart risks damaging those artifacts, so they do so only in cases where they have multiple examples and can risk destroying one or two to learn something. Archaeology for profit is a big business on Mars. A number of gravitic sail barges exist on Mars, nobody know why they were built, there is some biological component to them, they repel the ground, and can sail over Martian deserts, but they can't ascend too high, so they can't reach orbit as the standard air/raft or grave vehicle can, and their speed is limited to how fast the wind can push them, rudders which cut into the sand allow such vehicles to tack across or into the wind much as a watercraft could. Naturally such land ships leave tracks which could be followed.
 
Jacqual said:
I have always just used the Glow N Go and it did'nt work as a weapon would just move the ship, Mine even didn't have to turn around to brake. Just throw the reverse switch, and you would start stopping then back up. Never worried about a method for it to work that way of not. I never recieved a question on how it worked, but my players still had fun.

That is pretty much what I'm doing with the dark energy propulsion though experiment, no rules changes, just an alternate explanation for what it is. Reaction drives are sort of fool's errand with traveller, because ships mass aren't listed.
 
dragoner said:
Jacqual said:
I have always just used the Glow N Go and it did'nt work as a weapon would just move the ship, Mine even didn't have to turn around to brake. Just throw the reverse switch, and you would start stopping then back up. Never worried about a method for it to work that way of not. I never recieved a question on how it worked, but my players still had fun.

That is pretty much what I'm doing with the dark energy propulsion though experiment, no rules changes, just an alternate explanation for what it is. Reaction drives are sort of fool's errand with traveller, because ships mass aren't listed.
I use dtons as an approximation for its mass in metric tons,, since a good portion of the ship's volume is liquid hydrogen tankage anyway. My fast Drive A produces 200 metric force tons of thrust, when pushing against a 100 ton ship, it accelerated it at 2 gs, and basically I filled out an entire table of drives and hull sizes on that basis, the slow reaction drive of that same letter produced 2 force tons of force, The fast Drive B produced 400 tons of thrust, and the slow drive produced 4 tons and so on.

I always thought a Drive that produced exhaust looked more impressive than a UFO drive such as might exist on a flying saucer. Have you ever seen a rocket launch? Its much more interesting when it rises on a column of fire rather than lifting off silently like a UFO.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
dragoner said:
Jacqual said:
I have always just used the Glow N Go and it did'nt work as a weapon would just move the ship, Mine even didn't have to turn around to brake. Just throw the reverse switch, and you would start stopping then back up. Never worried about a method for it to work that way of not. I never recieved a question on how it worked, but my players still had fun.

That is pretty much what I'm doing with the dark energy propulsion though experiment, no rules changes, just an alternate explanation for what it is. Reaction drives are sort of fool's errand with traveller, because ships mass aren't listed.
I use dtons as an approximation for its mass in metric tons,, since a good portion of the ship's volume is liquid hydrogen tankage anyway. My fast Drive A produces 200 metric force tons of thrust, when pushing against a 100 ton ship, it accelerated it at 2 gs, and basically I filled out an entire table of drives and hull sizes on that basis, the slow reaction drive of that same letter produced 2 force tons of force, The fast Drive B produced 400 tons of thrust, and the slow drive produced 4 tons and so on.

I always thought a Drive that produced exhaust looked more impressive than a UFO drive such as might exist on a flying saucer. Have you ever seen a rocket launch? Its much more interesting when it rises on a column of fire rather than lifting off silently like a UFO.

Yes I also think a rocket launch looked more exciting then the UFO just getting up and going away with no noise or even a light show. But as I have been watching some shows, I have been thinking what if the ships exhoust (for lack of a better word) started glowing green, then as the ship started rising up in the air anyone around could hear a strange humming noise. Then as the ship built power up to start accelerating the hum got loader and the exhoust got brighter as the ship started going faster. Then people on the ground, would hear the sonic boom as the ship broke the sound barrier.
 
Been to Kennedy and have seen the shuttle launch, it is impressive, beautiful; but most of it's exhaust plume is simple steam.
 
I would think there would be a sense of awe seeing a space or star ship rising from the pad as one would as a plane or ship or locomotive thrills us by the sounds of engines and the movement of such mass. Remember In Search of Spock when the Enterprise pulls away from its mooring point as a janitor looks on? No exhaust trails or roaring of engines but there was that sensation of such a huge and mighty vessel on the move.

The need for sound and flaring fires is out cinematic desires in sci fi. When I play Traveller, I witness a little more hard science in a location. No sounds as ships dock or depart from orbital stations but you can imagine watching the smallest and the largest with a tingle while a downport should be alive with sounds of ships rising and touching down from the thrum of power and air and other matter disturbed by the thrust of AG in low altitude flight and maneuver activating at high altitude for greater power. Any waste particles and/or energy from those exhaust port could cause a glow as engines power up.
 
dragoner said:
Been to Kennedy and have seen the shuttle launch, it is impressive, beautiful; but most of it's exhaust plume is simple steam.
Yes but its real, we need all that roar and fire and steam to make the experience real for us, it would be disappointing if NASA just had a flying Saucer as in Lost in Space, that just whirled and spun around making a might pitched noise as it ascended slowly into the sky, that is typical trashy science fiction from the 1950s, the Space Shuttle is the real thing.
 
Reynard said:
I would think there would be a sense of awe seeing a space or star ship rising from the pad as one would as a plane or ship or locomotive thrills us by the sounds of engines and the movement of such mass. Remember In Search of Spock when the Enterprise pulls away from its mooring point as a janitor looks on? No exhaust trails or roaring of engines but there was that sensation of such a huge and mighty vessel on the move.

The need for sound and flaring fires is out cinematic desires in sci fi. When I play Traveller, I witness a little more hard science in a location. No sounds as ships dock or depart from orbital stations but you can imagine watching the smallest and the largest with a tingle while a downport should be alive with sounds of ships rising and touching down from the thrum of power and air and other matter disturbed by the thrust of AG in low altitude flight and maneuver activating at high altitude for greater power. Any waste particles and/or energy from those exhaust port could cause a glow as engines power up.

There are no sounds in space because vacuum carries no sound, and also a realistic reaction drive would accelerate slowly in centimeters per second squared, slowly over time building up an enormous velocity. You only blast off from a planet because you have to fight gravity on the way up to orbit. the rockets for getting into space are more powerful than the rockets for traveling in space, its all based on the speed of the rocket exhaust. The rocket exhaust for a Saturn V rocket is slow compared to the exhaust velocity of an ion drive. A Saturn V rocket uses a lot of fuel just getting into orbit and it has to discard most of its initial launch mass just doing so, but once in space, a more frugal ion or plasma drive is used, which just sips and not gulps rocket fuel! that is why my slow drive accelerates in hundreths of an Earth gravity rather than multiple gees. It takes a little longer to travel around the Solar System, but not much, instead of a few days it takes a few weeks big deal! Why not use real science when we posit travel within the Solar System, we don't really need that FTL drive until we talk about traveling to Alpha Centauri and then out come the rubber science, as our scientists don't really know how to do this in real life, and once you get the FTL drive out, where ever use a rocket again? You cn use anti-gravity, reaction-less drives and artificial gravity to solve all your problems, you might as well be doing Star Trek. Star Trek has limitations, because basically the shows wee filmed on a sound stage on Earth, a role playing game has no need to be so limited however, as we only describe the scene with words. Do you really want your characters walking around in a starship with gravity plates under the floor, or do you want him floating through the cabin grabbing onto handholds wherever he can find them?
 
Reynard said:
The need for sound and flaring fires is out cinematic desires in sci fi.

I agree, the ships in traveller are more impressive from an engineering standpoint, for what they can do vs a big plume of steam. But I'm not here for real: triple doctorate, never touch the controls, missions planned years in advance, never deviate from course. Too many shuttles roaring around wouldn't be realistic, not with what it took to make one fly.
 
Well, it's not quite the same as sitting by the runway as a youth being awestruck by an F-15 taking off with afterburners, now there's cinematic! What a noise!

It seems Traveller treats starships (at least the sub 500 dt ones!) as we do cars in the 21st century. Just get in and turn the key, off you go. I wouldn't want it to be on a par with NASA and its bureaucratic emphasis on safety and covering it's own butt but it kinda takes the awe out of travelling to the stars for me...
 
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