Literacy / Illiteracy

[René]

The people of the Hyborian Age are very well educated:
everyone can read and write.

O.K., not everyone, the Kushites and the Southern Islanders for example don't have grammar schools, but a Cimmerian barbarian has been taught the mysteries of the alphabet as well as the Himelian tribesman and of course the standard Hyborian.

This was maybe a little bit sarcastic, but I think my point is clear:
why is the majority of the Hyborian people /player characters literate?
In the European middle ages there were nobles and even kings / emperors who weren't able to write more than their own name; the standard mercenary / thief / pirate etc. wasn't even able to do this small task.

So why not restricting literacy to scholars and maybe nobles? It seems to me that in this aspect the CONAN RPG is "contaminated" with a very unrealistic part of D&D-ideology.

 

[The Warlord]

Interesting idea!
I agree nobles, and scholars should be literate in their native language. What would you suggest as a way a non-noble/scholar could become literate?

 

[Jason Durall]

The people of the Hyborian Age are very well educated:
everyone can read and write.

O.K., not everyone, the Kushites and the Southern Islanders for example don't have grammar schools, but a Cimmerian barbarian has been taught the mysteries of the alphabet as well as the Himelian tribesman and of course the standard Hyborian.

This was maybe a little bit sarcastic, but I think my point is clear:
why is the majority of the Hyborian people /player characters literate?
In the European middle ages there were nobles and even kings / emperors who weren't able to write more than their own name; the standard mercenary / thief / pirate etc. wasn't even able to do this small task.

So why not restricting literacy to scholars and maybe nobles? It seems to me that in this aspect the CONAN RPG is "contaminated" with a very unrealistic part of D&D-ideology.

I don't know if it's so much a D&Dism than a Howardism.

As far as I can remember, there was no indication in his stories that Cimmerians, for example, were illiterate, and Conan himself was quite the linguist - being able to puzzle out obscure and even arcane scripts.

The rules exist for illiteracy - characters from Kushite and the Northern Black Kingdoms, Pictland, Southern Islands or Southern Black Kingdoms are all assumed to be illiterate, and must pay 2 skill points to become literate.

If it suits you, why not just extend this to all races, or make it class-based?

 

[The King]

In the core book, at the beginning of the Bestiary chapter, it is written that commoners are illiterate. So I guess most people are.

Conan learnt progressively: he was a soldier and a mercenary almost everywhere so he knows a minimum.

While it is true that people were illeterate in the middle age, the Roman Empire did a lot to ensure progress in the field of education. The Middle Age was the result of the decadence of the Roman Empire and many enlightened progress were lost during the "dark ages" so it doesn't fit well as a comparison with the Hyborian world. Anyway Charlemagne wrote several decrees to ensure the development of written knowledge (through the building of universities).

Moreover It shall not be forgotten that many writtings were tranlasted in other languages (the Bible being one of them, but also Persian tales, etc.) Of course most scholars were religious. As are probably all Mitra priests.

 

[The King]

Kushites, Picts and other tribe and clan-like civilizations are dominated by people who can "read" the stars, runes or bone dices (so-called divination), but they also decipher the way the wind blows, etc. So were the druids and the shamans too.
It is thus a kind of culture and knowledge that we have forgotten because such things and facts can't be written down, but only understood after a long experience.

 

[Sutek]

What if there were a Linguistics skill instead of it being based on education or "scholarliness"?

There's a mechanic in AEG's SG1 game where Skill Ranks indicate conversational proficiency for each Language that one writes down. The total ranks added together for all the languages one speaks is used to make a Liguistics check should a new language, or one similar or familiar to a language the character already speaks, be encountered.

That doesn't encompass the same sort of intuition that Jason mentioned, but it would be a better mechanic than "languages" in the more D&D sense and be easier to retro-fit into the existing language system. Right now, characters get a ton of languages unless they have a low INT. 3+INTb plus the automatic language is a minimum of 4 if the character's INT bonus is zero. These are absolutely free of charge too and no proficiency is needed to speak them.

Reading is an entirely different issue. Typically, reading and writing denote an eriudite station, so it seems reasonable that only Scholars and Nobles would have such proficiency. However, that's frankly jsut no fun at all. What you end up with is the Thief character's player arguing for an hour and a half, while the pizza gets cold mind you, that his character should be capable of reading too. (sigh)

I propose this house rule for language acquisition and speaking proficiency as well as litteracy and linguistics (figuring out languages you don't know):

• Characters recieve 3+INTb languages from thier Bonus Languages list for thier race as well as the Automatic language.
• Characters do not need to spend skill points on these languages, but instead recieve Effective Ranks as if they were skills equal to thier WISb each level. This is used to converse when complex ideas need to be conveyed. Simple ideas such as "me" or "you" or indicating an object by pointing at it dont' really require speech. Ultimately it's up to the GM to decide if a concept requires language rather than just rudimentary communication. Haggling, debate or interrogation are some examples where this roll would be necessary.
• Languages can sometimes be picked up on quite quickly and simple ideas requiring more than gestures can be conveyed by using broken phrases and the like. Any chararacter wishing to do this adds all Effective ranks consulting the Bonus Languages list for his race and the race he is trying to communicate with. If they have a language in common on those lists but the PC doesn't have Effective Ranks in that language, then he can use the total of the Effective ranks he does have for any languages uncommon between the two races or his INTb + WISb, whichever is higher, and test using this value as a bonus.
• Following the rules in the book, about 2 months of game time are necessary to pick up a language to the degree of being conversant, so Effective Ranks begin when the PC acquires the new language.

The test DC for any of these is 10+the Effective Rank of the speaker's language.

Examples:
A: A 3rd level Cimmerian with an INTb of +0 should have his 1 automatic language (Cimmerian) and up to 3 bonus languages (from Nordheimer, Pictish, Aquilonian and Hyperborean). He chooses Aquilonian, Nordheimer and Pictish. His Effective ranks for communicating in those languages with a WISb of +3 would be 9 in each.
B: This Cimmerian wishes to speak to a Hyborian soldier. Thier automatic languages are different, but they both have Effective Ranks in Aquilonian so they can converse normally without needing to make rolls unless something complicated or abstract is needing to be related.
C: This same Cimmerian trying to speak with a Hyrkanian nomad. The have no commonn tongue, but consulting thier Bonus Languages lists for each race, each are exposed to Hyperborean enough to possibly find a few common simple phrases. The Cimmerian has no Effective ranks in this language because he didn't ever pick it for one of his bonus languages or as a new language. His INTb+WISb is higher, therefore, than his effective ranks, so his rolls using 1d20 + 3 versus the Hyrkanian's language skill + 10. The Hyrkanian is the same level and WIS, but chose Hyperborean as a bonus skill and so has 9 effective ranks. His INTb+WISb is lower, so he rolls 1s20 + 9 versus the Cimmerian's skill + 10. Note that these tests are to understand the speaker rather than to speak the language.
D: If our Cimmerian were to go up a level and make a case to the GM that he learned some Hyperborean, then he'd have Effective Levels of 12 in his original languages and an Effective level of 3 in Hyperborean.

 

[Sutek]

Kushites, Pictes and other tribe and clan-like civilizations are domonated by people who can "read" the stars, or runes or bone dices, as well as the way the wind blows, etc. So were the druids and the shamans too.
It is thus a kind of culture and knowledge that we have forgotten because such things and facts can't be written down, but only understood after a long experience.

Yeah. Go watch "13th Warrior" for evidence of the way it used to be. People who were smart enough or well educated in just Greek or Latin were able to pick apart other languages based on such minute comonalities.

 

[René]

I don't know if it's so much a D&Dism than a Howardism.

As far as I can remember, there was no indication in his stories that Cimmerians, for example, were illiterate, and Conan himself was quite the linguist - being able to puzzle out obscure and even arcane scripts.

Yes, there is no such explicit indication in REH's stories: but I think it would be realistic.
Regarding Conan: he was not a standard barbarian / soldier / thief / pirate, but the most heroic character of his time with a long career and an above-average intelligence, so imho he is not the best choice as an example.

The rules exist for illiteracy - characters from Kushite and the Northern Black Kingdoms, Pictland, Southern Islands or Southern Black Kingdoms are all assumed to be illiterate, and must pay 2 skill points to become literate.

If it suits you, why not just extend this to all races, or make it class-based?

This would indeed be my solution: every non-Scholar and non-Noble pays two skill points for literacy.

Just wanted to hear other opinions / ideas.

 

[Orkin]

I think that some of us are confusing literacy with the ability to speak more than one language.

That said, I believe that the stories suggest that Conan had time between adventures to teach reading and writing to himself, rather than learn under a teacher. So, theoretically, anyone who has time inclination and intelligence should be able to learn.

 

[The King]

Conan learnt foreign languages drinking in inns or in bed with some wenches. These are probably the best training centers of the Hyborian Age (it could also apply nowadays). :wink: