Kharamun Desert

ScottOden said:
The King said:
Don't you think Aghrapur is the pendant of Samarkand?

I've always thought Aghrapur was meant to be Baghdad or Cairo, albeit with the gloss and glitter of an Arabian Nights fantasy.
Yes but the cities you mention don't have the Asian flavour of Aghrapur.

Darkstorm says the Turanian Empire is related to historical Turkey while I would say it's rather a mixture with the Mongols, because Turanian are known for they mounted archery which the Mongols excelled at.

Moreover the governor are named "khan" which definitely comes from the Mongols.
 
I think my mind has just been blown by tarkhan bey's assertation that it wasn't Howard's intention to associate Zamboula with Istanbul. The fact that Howard named his fictional city after the historical one shows that that he certainly connected them in his mind.

Howard's Turanians are based on the Turkic race, so Samarkand would be a logical model for Aghrapur. His Hyrkanians are based more on the Mongol/Tatar races. The Turanian are Hyrkanians as well, and the whole thing is pretty much modeled on those central Asian nomadic tribes.

The main Turanian cities have the same naming convention.
Aghrapur = Agha (Turkic for "leader") + Pur (Hindi for "town")
Sultanapur = Sultan (Islamic title for "ruler") + Pur (Hindi for "town")
Shahpur = Shah (Persian for "king") + Pur (Hindi for "town")

I'm not sure that the three cities are actually based on particular cities; it looks like Howard was just having some fun naming the Turanian cities essentially the same name.
 
Perhaps it is possible to know to which real cities these Turanian cities refer by superposing a map of the earth.
 
Well now, its not everyone who can claim that they have blown Darkstorm's mind. :lol: Seriously though Darkstorm, I am not sure whether the problem here is that you are misinterpreting me or whether, in fact, I am misrepresenting myself.
I am not suggesting that REH did not derive the name of his city of Zamboula from Istanbul. I think, like yourself, that this is highly probable. Therefore on that level it is clear that he connected the two names. It is the fact that you seem to be asserting that REH regarded Zamboula as his fictional manifestation of a Hyborian Constantinople that I do not concur with.
You compare Zamboula as the easternmost major city of the Stygian empire with Byzantium as the easternmost city of the Roman empire and associate its capture by the Turanians as comparable to the latter's capture by the Turks.
I would argue that,before its fall in 1453, Constantinople had been the capital city of its own Byzantine empire for a thousand years or more. At its fall, Constantinople was regarded as probably the largest city in the known world with a population of up to half a million persons. Rome's population, by comparison numbered in the tens of thousands during the same period.
Constantinople would in a very short space of time have its name changed to Istanbul and become the capital of the Ottoman empire.
Zamboula, in comparison, appears to be no more than a far flung outpost of the failing Stygian empire and there is nothing to suggest that it is likely to become the Turanian capital.
I therefore submit that Aghapur, as the crossroads of the world,capital of the empire and a port into the bargain has a better case to represent Constantinople than Zamboula has(naming rituals aside).
I have also been thinking,given my previous post on the possibility of Zamorian's filling the role of Byzantines, that Shadizar(which we seem to know very little about) may also have a case.
I have also been thinking that if Shadizar might be an earlier Byzantium/Constantinople then Aghapur might be construed as Brusa/Bursa.Do you not think that Samarkand is already represented by the existence of Secunderam?
I am not sure how much of this that you will agree with,if any of it. I do hope however that it explains my thinking and that it goes some way to repairing any damage done to your mind. :wink:
 
I totally get what you are saying. To a certain extent I agree with you. What I was objecting to was your assertion that Howard INTENDED for Aghrapur to be modeled after Constantinople. My objection deals with the facts that we know about how Howard originated his naming conventions. When he named Turan's capital for the first time in THE DEVIL IN IRON, he didn't use Istanbul or Samarkhand or any other actual Turkic city name. He simply made a name that essentially means "Leader's Town". When he next visited the Turanian empire in THE MAN-EATERS OF ZAMBOULA, he decided to name that city after a Turkic city; the most famous, Istanbul. He even used a bit of the city's actual history to give some needed gravitas to his fictional city. But that's about as deep as that got, since nothing else about Zamboula is like the real Istanbul. There is nothing in the Conan stories to actually link Istanbul to the fictional Aghrapur. So asserting that Howard intended Istanbul to be Aghrapur isn't supported by the facts, however much we want it to be so.

That being said, I agree that Aghrapur is the Hyborian version of Istanbul. The cities resemble each other in many ways. If you hadn't brought Howard's intent into the equation, we wouldn't be arguing about this at all.

I'm not feeling the Zamorians as Byzantines, though. Howard sort of gave that distinction to Stygia.

Just my two cents... :)
 
Darkstorm,I think that you need to read my posts again. It seems that you believe that I have suggested that REH intended for us to consider Aghrapur as his Istanbul/Constantinople. :?
I didnt. I am saying that we should not simply regard Zamboula as Istanbul because of a convention in naming. I thought I was quite clear that the Aghrapur/Constantinople idea was my personal opinion in the earlier post. Despite mentioning REH I was not trying to justify my opinion with evidence which clearly isnt there.
I really hope that there are no hard feelings over what amounts to a misunderstanding. I do enjoy your work very much and look forward to discussing other aspects of the Hyborian age with you in the future. :)
 
Back
Top