Jumping into combat... Scenario wrecker?

[HappyDaze]

He did keep a few in reserve, but not nearly as many as I did.

And we have noticed that small ships have all the advantages. For me this is fine since I like smal-ship hordes, but my opponent favors fewer big units and the game clearly doesn't go well with that in mind. We've never seen an Armageddon unit worth its value, and most War vessels don't reall stack up either. Ships in the Skirmish/Raid/Battle levels seem the best value (Patrol vessels are usually just too weak to be really effective even in numbers and they tend to give up too many VPs).

 

[mrambassador1]

Generally speaking you don't want to field many war or god forbid armageddon ships in a battle, they are usually the 1 or 2 ships your fleet is built around to give a big punch. Most of the time you want to field many smaller ships to support them. I don't see this as a flaw in the bigger ships, throughout history navies have used many smaller ships to escort 1 or 2 large ones.

The 2 things most big ships do well is long range attacks and can then just wade into the middle of the battle firing in all directions, most smaller ships can only do one of those effectively, so they give you some more tactical flexibility. The initiative sink factor is somewhat mitigated by the fact that most war and armageddon ships have more powerful and longer range secondary weapons than most skirmish and even raid primary weapons, so it doesn't matter if you get behind them.

That being said, I think you have some valid points about using many smaller ships but I still think it is a good idea to include some big ones, its just that a lot of people get caught up on the idea of 5 octurions, "what a sight", rather than using a more balanced fleet

 

[wpngjstr]

its just that a lot of people get caught up on the idea of 5 octurions, "what a sight", rather than using a more balanced fleet

Given that we're playing a game based on a TV show ( ie all about the visuals) a fleet built around "what a sight" should be just as valid (or effective) as one built around traditional wet navy approaches (many of which, historically, have gone the "all battleship" route)

 

[skavendan]

Well you clearly explain your point of it but what did he field? 24 ships is a hard number to handle.

 

[HappyDaze]

Well you clearly explain your point of it but what did he field? 24 ships is a hard number to handle.

He took 2 G'Vrahn, 4 Dag'Kar, 4 Patrol Cruisers, 7 assorted Skirmish ships (including a few scouts) and 2 Patrol of fighters.

He knows I love the Liati and that I've used it lay waste to him several times. Knowing he knows this, I assumed he would go E-mine heavy - and I built the force that I did. I played the player rather than the game, so it didn't suprise me that I pulled off a win, it just suprised me how sudden and total the victory was when short range weapons are in range right away.

 

[skavendan]

Well you clearly explain your point of it but what did he field? 24 ships is a hard number to handle.

He took 2 G'Vrahn, 4 Dag'Kar, 4 Patrol Cruisers, 7 assorted Skirmish ships (including a few scouts) and 2 Patrol of fighters.

He knows I love the Liati and that I've used it lay waste to him several times. Knowing he knows this, I assumed he would go E-mine heavy - and I built the force that I did. I played the player rather than the game, so it didn't suprise me that I pulled off a win, it just suprised me how sudden and total the victory was when short range weapons are in range right away.

To beat the Centauri Republic The Narns need to hit you from range and get the first blow. He took too many high level ships. and fighters are pointless without a fleet carrier.

THe G'Vrahn is a good ship but in a jump point battle I wouldn't take it.

Jump points do give the advantage but with the random direction / placement 3D6 - Crew Quality, using jump points effectivly is hard for some races, however the Centauri are very fast and not lumbering unlike the narn giving you the ability to get in a good poisition fairly easily.

He should have gone for one big ship with fantastic short range fire and lots of patrol / Raid level ships.

Perhapes when you fight next you should agree on the number of ships and both take the same amount so your not both point sinking mad. Would make it more interesting + balanced.

I have yet to play space superiority but I look forward to it since my fleet has advanced jump engines (Psi Corp)! I will no doubt post my opinion on it after a battle using it.

 

[HappyDaze]

I tend to agree on fighters being useless. When they come as part of a package (included with a ship) I'm OK with them, but other than the Vorlons (maybe), I'd never consider buying them with FAPs. Even if they do good, they still give up way too many VPs when they die (and they will...).

 

[mrambassador1]

its just that a lot of people get caught up on the idea of 5 octurions, "what a sight", rather than using a more balanced fleet

Given that we're playing a game based on a TV show ( ie all about the visuals) a fleet built around "what a sight" should be just as valid (or effective) as one built around traditional wet navy approaches (many of which, historically, have gone the "all battleship" route)

[/quote]

sorry I didn't mean to imply "what a sight" fleets aren't valid, they're perfectly valid and are very effective against many fleet configurations. It's just that they can be vulnerable to certain fleet selections and happyDaze's fleet is just such a one (it's almost made for it).

As for the historical use of battleships, when not escorted they were typically deployed in large numbers, you would rarely see a big valuable ship alone. It would always be accompanied by other ships, either smaller escorts or other big ships as the historical period dictated. This game doesn't really cater to battles involving dozens of battleships. I suppose you could have one, its just that nobody seems to.

 

[mrambassador1]

That could be an interesting scenario. 15 pt War, with no ships smaller than battle. Very doable, I've noticed games involving big ships don't take any longer than games involving small ones, they just dish out and can take more punishment.

 

[skavendan]

I tend to agree on fighters being useless. When they come as part of a package (included with a ship) I'm OK with them, but other than the Vorlons (maybe), I'd never consider buying them with FAPs. Even if they do good, they still give up way too many VPs when they die (and they will...).

I think the current way fighters are used make them suck.

Every race should have a fleet carrier. There just too easy to kill in general without one. Emines,Accurate weapons,Dogfights,Antifighter, All pretty much auto-death for a fighter.

 

[Triggy]

I tend to agree on fighters being useless. When they come as part of a package (included with a ship) I'm OK with them, but other than the Vorlons (maybe), I'd never consider buying them with FAPs. Even if they do good, they still give up way too many VPs when they die (and they will...).

I think the current way fighters are used make them suck.

Every race should have a fleet carrier. There just too easy to kill in general without one. Emines,Accurate weapons,Dogfights,Antifighter, All pretty much auto-death for a fighter.

I think aside from the way VPs are given for fighters, I think most fleets have great options for their selections. Not only that but a player unprepared for facing fighters can be defeated very easily. Fighters are a great boost to any fleet and I've found on the tournament scene players are just starting to realise their importance.

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

 

[Da Boss]

I tend to agree on fighters being useless. When they come as part of a package (included with a ship) I'm OK with them, but other than the Vorlons (maybe), I'd never consider buying them with FAPs. Even if they do good, they still give up way too many VPs when they die (and they will...).

I think the current way fighters are used make them suck.

Every race should have a fleet carrier. There just too easy to kill in general without one. Emines,Accurate weapons,Dogfights,Antifighter, All pretty much auto-death for a fighter.

I think aside from the way VPs are given for fighters, I think most fleets have great options for their selections. Not only that but a player unprepared for facing fighters can be defeated very easily. Fighters are a great boost to any fleet and I've found on the tournament scene players are just starting to realise their importance.

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

All true

-my two paltry fighters did nothing but thats a weakness of the Shadows :roll:

well at lead they are being fixed soon?

 

[Triggy]

I think the current way fighters are used make them suck.

Every race should have a fleet carrier. There just too easy to kill in general without one. Emines,Accurate weapons,Dogfights,Antifighter, All pretty much auto-death for a fighter.

I think aside from the way VPs are given for fighters, I think most fleets have great options for their selections. Not only that but a player unprepared for facing fighters can be defeated very easily. Fighters are a great boost to any fleet and I've found on the tournament scene players are just starting to realise their importance.

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

All true

-my two paltry fighters did nothing but thats a weakness of the Shadows :roll:

well at lead they are being fixed soon?

If all goes to plan they should be going to 1 per wing to fix them.

 

[skavendan]

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

OK I should have pointed out that Vorlon fighters are not fighters at all...

I mean you have a beam and anti fighter....

By far the best fighter in the game but secretly it's more a patrol ship.

 

[Triggy]

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

OK I should have pointed out that Vorlon fighters are not fighters at all...

I mean you have a beam and anti fighter....

By far the best fighter in the game but secretly it's more a patrol ship.

OK then, a previous tournament with EA Third Age - 1 x Omega, 1 x Nova, 1 x Avenger, 1 x Olympus and 2 x Hermes (12 Thunderbolts and 6 Auroras). They waltzed through hordeds of Demoses and White Stars and were an absolute joy to watch.

Or the one after with a couple of Psi Corps Motherships...suffice to say once you know how to make them work, fighters rock!

 

[Da Boss]

I concur - I usually take a Balvarian at 5 pt raid - gives me 4 Raziks and 4 sentris to add to the 2 Rutarians on the Liati - all great fighters at what they do

 

[mrambassador1]

I love how this is the same argument that used to rage years ago when 1st ed came out. Half the people think fighters too powerful, half think they're useless. I think the important thing to remember about fighters, and all the ships really, is that you have to think about what you are sending them against, most ships and fighters work really well against one type of enemy and really badly against others. I think that's why some people think fighters are useless and others think they are great, because they usually play the same group of people who use similar fleets or styles of play most of the time.

 

[Da Boss]

I think aside from the way VPs are given for fighters, I think most fleets have great options for their selections. Not only that but a player unprepared for facing fighters can be defeated very easily. Fighters are a great boost to any fleet and I've found on the tournament scene players are just starting to realise their importance.

I can show this particularly by my use of Vorlon fighters in a recent event and even in a Battle PL game, they were one of the major reasons the Vorlon fleet did so well. Sure they have to be used carefully but even against Minbari they tipped the battle.

All true

-my two paltry fighters did nothing but thats a weakness of the Shadows :roll:

well at lead they are being fixed soon?

If all goes to plan they should be going to 1 per wing to fix them.

Hmm either thats really cool - a patrol level ship rather than an actual fighter 8) or you are winding me up :wink:

 

[Triggy]

All true

-my two paltry fighters did nothing but thats a weakness of the Shadows :roll:

well at lead they are being fixed soon?

If all goes to plan they should be going to 1 per wing to fix them.

Hmm either thats really cool - a patrol level ship rather than an actual fighter 8) or you are winding me up :wink:

Winding you up I'm afraid

Don't worry, something will be done about them and I think we have a good idea of what that is now...

 

[Burger]

Another S&P article stating that they are fine just how they are?