Jump Gates

[Lorcan Nagle]

So that makes Sheriden and the Centauri war criminals by definition as Sheriden blew up a jump gate on perpose to escape a shadow vessel & and the Centauri used mass drivers on the Narns. BOTH ARE CLASSED AS WAR CRIMES by your own definition....

More or less. Sheridan justified the destruction of the Markab Jump Gate as keeping scavengers out of their home system, though.

Well in that case he should destroy all the gates that are near "IPX projects" (if thats what there called) scavenging dead worlds to make a better Earth what a pill of rubbish.

Common guys you can come up with better Justification than this can't you?

No, he destroyed the Jumpgate to take out the Shadow ship that was chasing the White Star. He justified it to the crew of the White Star by saying it was sving their lives AND preventing people from ransacking the recently dead Markab system (it was less than two months after the Drafa plague wiped them out, after all).

Anyway, there's a huge difference between criminals and scavengers robbing the homes of the recently dead - literal grave robbing - and legitimate archeaological expeditions. Not that IPX were an inherently "evil" organisation, just that some divisions that close ties to Clarke.

 

[skavendan]

So it's ok for sheriden to do it basically!

Mind you they would have just waved a petition at him and gone naughty boy. Pritty much like with Mass Drivers.

Anyways we have drifted way off from killing jump points in a game.

Although many disagree in a time of need or just out of spite to cripple your enemys I still believe empires would do such a thing.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I never said it was OK for Sheridan to do it...

 

[tneva82]

No, he destroyed the Jumpgate to take out the Shadow ship that was chasing the White Star. He justified it to the crew of the White Star by saying it was sving their lives AND preventing people from ransacking the recently dead Markab system (it was less than two months after the Drafa plague wiped them out, after all).

Rather that was justification for choosing this particular gate.

Lemme see. I'm gonna blow up jump gate. Now do I pick this essentially useless gate over dead planet or this gate over busy world with lots of traffic...Hmmm...What a difficult choise

Nevermind civilian casualties picking up more busy gate as target could cause...Imagine couple of civilian freighters being in near vicinity when white star triggers it...

 

[tneva82]

Although many disagree in a time of need or just out of spite to cripple your enemys I still believe empires would do such a thing.

Cripple your enemy? Turn that to cripple everybody INCLUDING YOURSELF!!!

Don't you understand that anybody doing that would be doing equally big damage to themselves as to the other?

 

[skavendan]

If it's a jump gate deep in enemy terriory how is it going to cripple yourself?

I did say it was more or less an act of desperation but you seem to be unable to grasp that little point. And I very much doubt empires like the drakh give a damn. They are unlikly to be trading with the enemy so wheres the down side....

 

[Da Boss]

My personal take - jump gates make travel easier, but are not essential.

Civilian shuttles, liners and freighters don't carry the necessary equipment to move off-beacon, but most jump-capable warships do - it takes longer, and there's an element of risk, but it's doable.

Scouts and dedicated survey ships such as the EA's Explorers are more capable still - the Explorers carry the components of jumpgates to assemble in valuable systems they discover (I think that was B5W fluff).

Destroying a jump gate won't completely isolate a system, but it will cripple their interstellar trade. Such a devastating economic blow, possibly leading to hardship or even starvation for the civilian population (cf Dan Simmon's Hyperion books), could be considered a 'War Crime'.

Yes and no IMHO - I think the Jump Gates are essential as beacons perhaps even more than their ability to allow traffic through. The explorer ships def make jump gates but I presume there is a limit to how far they can travel before they get lost as well?

It seem making a Jump Gate is not that dificult but probably very expensive?

I doubt the Ancients including the Shadows and Vorlons would blow them up as it is very useful for their pet/potential pet Younger races.

I think many races - eg: Dilgar, Drakh, Makrab (?) would do it if they really thought they had no alternative? I am not sure how well known the tactic is?

I would have thought if Earth could have done it at the battle of the line - they would have? Take them with us ?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

No, he destroyed the Jumpgate to take out the Shadow ship that was chasing the White Star. He justified it to the crew of the White Star by saying it was sving their lives AND preventing people from ransacking the recently dead Markab system (it was less than two months after the Drafa plague wiped them out, after all).

Rather that was justification for choosing this particular gate.

True. Sheridan is an officer with a reputation for unconventional tactics and even he only destroyed a jumpgate as a desperation tactic.

 

[tneva82]

If it's a jump gate deep in enemy terriory how is it going to cripple yourself?

Lemme see. Howabout you lose that beacon? Which btw makes traveling there with your warships pretty tricky.

Then comes revenge. They blow out YOUR jump gate. You pay back it and blow yet another gate. On and on and on until there are no jump gates and you are forced to travel hyperspace blindly. That will cost you ships, lives and money more than you can count.

And I very much doubt empires like the drakh give a damn. They are unlikly to be trading with the enemy so wheres the down side....

I would assume even Drakh want to travel in hyperspace in future...Or do you think Drakh's would settle for spending rest of their lives in their home unable to travel to other stars?

 

[skavendan]

If it's a jump gate deep in enemy terriory how is it going to cripple yourself?

Lemme see. Howabout you lose that beacon? Which btw makes traveling there with your warships pretty tricky.

Then comes revenge. They blow out YOUR jump gate. You pay back it and blow yet another gate. On and on and on until there are no jump gates and you are forced to travel hyperspace blindly. That will cost you ships, lives and money more than you can count.

And I very much doubt empires like the drakh give a damn. They are unlikly to be trading with the enemy so wheres the down side....

I would assume even Drakh want to travel in hyperspace in future...Or do you think Drakh's would settle for spending rest of their lives in their home unable to travel to other stars?

ACT OF DESPERATION! those 3 words sum up my point that you just can not accept. If your desperate your not going to be launching an invasion any time soon and if you read the original post it's actually done in a hush hush way so who's to say who did it.

And as pointed out they would most likely build a new gate it would just take some time.

And if you knew much about the Drakh supposably the Vorlons blew up there home world over 1,000 years ago and now they have fast ships of a city like nature and plant themselfs within the empires they manipulate which also means they could use the Centauri to blow up a Gate o no they might blow up the gate near Centauri prime am sure that would upset them....

 

[Omnipotent]

I would have thought if Earth could have done it at the battle of the line - they would have? Take them with us ?

That is an interesting point Da Boss...now that I think about it, it is wierd that they did NOT do this, as it was clear they were facing extincion :?

Ouh well, would have made an interesting B5 serie;

Season 1-100 :lol:

plot:

*The humans rebuild there fleet completely isolated from both other EA planets and races, with the remaining knowledge of Minbari ships* - This would go on most likely about 100 years as that is at least the time EA was behind minbari.

 

[Taran]

At the Battle of the Line, the Minbari jumped into Earth orbit from the outer system. No Jumpgates. No need for jumpgates. No effect from destroying the jumpgates.
They were already there.

 

[tneva82]

And if you knew much about the Drakh supposably the Vorlons blew up there home world over 1,000 years ago and now they have fast ships of a city like nature and plant themselfs within the empires they manipulate which also means they could use the Centauri to blow up a Gate o no they might blow up the gate near Centauri prime am sure that would upset them....

Gee who cares if you have fasts ships of city like nature. No jump gates, no beacons, those ships are stranded in space unable to go anywhere faster than light without hideous luck. So wether to risk being lucky or be lost forever...

Need to be pretty desperate situation to be willing to sacrifice future usability of hyper space. Drakhs wouldn't have need for that. They would rather slip back into shadows and to safety. Better safe in hidden place able to use hyper space than safe in one place without ability to travel anywhere in space except sub-light speed.

Simple thing: You can't destroy jump gates if you want to use hyperspace in future. The bloody network is simply too fraqile.

 

[tneva82]

I would have thought if Earth could have done it at the battle of the line - they would have? Take them with us ?

That is an interesting point Da Boss...now that I think about it, it is wierd that they did NOT do this, as it was clear they were facing extincion :?

Apart from few issues:

a) how to ensure minbari comes precicely where you have those conviniently placed jump gates(minbari comes from own jump points afterall). Don't you think minbari's might(especially concidering humans did try that tactic so probably minbari were aware of it already) be just "bit" suspicious about jump gates and...oh I don't know...maybe AVOID them?-)
b) okay you blow jump gate. Boom. Few minbari vessels die. So did your fleet. Now who delays remaining minbari fleet? You know, buy time for civilians to escape to new home and all that

Point of the line wasn't to kill minbari. It was to DELAY THEM. Hardly going to work if you blow your defending fleet to smitters when first minbari vessels come out...

...Nevermind any ship attempting to initiate jump point would be targeted and destroyed in heartbeat and thus no boom.

 

[captainsmirk]

A mentioned the Battle of the Line was intended to delay the Minbari whilst as much of the civilian population as possible escaped, blowing up the jumpgate would have actually removed the civilians escape route...

There is no evidence to suggest that any of the races have civilian ships equipped with jump engines, as the Q40 needed to make jump engines is so rare it seems likely that that not used in jumpgates is snapped up the military for their vessels.


Nick

 

[Da Boss]

Like the Minbari would have let them escape through it

would have been lots of "honourable" target practice for their warriors.

Why is that honourable in Scfi so often means I attack when you can't see me - its only a pity your are awakee :roll: Rimmer clones

or let us fight with this ancient highly specialised martial arts weapon - Oh wait you don't how to use it - sad for you........lets fight.

 

[tneva82]

A mentioned the Battle of the Line was intended to delay the Minbari whilst as much of the civilian population as possible escaped, blowing up the jumpgate would have actually removed the civilians escape route...

Probably they had single jump engine ship designated to keep the jump point available. As pointed minbari probably weren't going to allow gate be used...Single warship over it and try to slip past...

 

[Da Boss]

brings up another point - if they had jumped out - can the Minbari catch them / follow them in hyperscape due to their superior tech?

just wondering really

 

[tneva82]

brings up another point - if they had jumped out - can the Minbari catch them / follow them in hyperscape due to their superior tech?

just wondering really

Matter of WHEN they can get into pursue mode. If they can escape outside their scanner range then not much they can do. Ships don't leave trails to follow ;-)

Another reason to delay them as much as possible and hope that sufficient numbers manage to escape to make rebuilding human race viable possibility.

 

[Omnipotent]

I was more thinking in the lines of destroying jump gates when the situation was clearly impossible, not as late as at the line...but anyhow, if no jump gates were needed for the minbari to enter earth space then it does not matter.