JoT

[locarno24]

As a further comment on the skill, there DOES exist within the SF genre a tradition of general resourcefulness and competence. Heinlein protagonists fairly reek of it, even if young and undertrained. And Maguyver is the poster child for the skill. Even if unrealistic, there is justification for the concept from source fiction.

Pretty much any science fiction, in fact. Stargate and Star Trek are a good example of "I do science, me!" type scientists who regularly flip from physicist to chemist to engineer, and seem able to complete ludicrously difficult design tasks literally overnight..

 

[rust]

Yeah, but you can only fairly compare him to someone else with Int and Edu of 3.

But the size of the modifier provided by JoT would be exactly the same
for a character with Int 18 and Edu 18.

 

[alex_greene]

I think your forgetting that JoT assumes a wide basis of knowledge was accumulated over a given characters life, professional or otherwise, and my life definitely illustrates that. I am in my 40's, the age of many Traveller PC's I see.

If JoT would assume this, I would find it a far more acceptable concept.

However, the 22 years old Barbarian groatle hunter from the TL 0 pla-
net Farthestout with his Int of 3 and Edu of 3 gets exactly the same mo-
difier from his JoT skill as someone with a lot of life experience in many
careers.

JoT would make him the equivalent of someone like you, with your accu-
mulated knowledge and skills, although he never did anything to accumu-
late knowledge and skills - he did not earn it like you did, it just fell from
the sky and hit him.

Only if you started him out that way: "Once upon a time, there was a field full of groaties. *ping* And there was a barbarian groatie hunter. *ping*"

He might not have had the skill sets, but with J-o-T he could well have picked up a lot of experience of the following tasks, whether or not he had the skills for them:-

Animals (all specialities)
Athletics (archery, endurance, strength)
Art (sculpting, probably scrimshaw on groatie bones)
Broker (selling skins for food, basics)
Carouse
Engineering (putting up shelters, making weapons)
Gambler
Language (if he met foreigners in the trading post where he sold pelts)
Life Science (botany, zoology) - foraging for herbs, edible plants, avoiding poisonous ones, checking the herds for diseases, watching for signs of predators
Mechanic (keeping his bow strung, keeping the kayak watertight)
Medic (patching up his own wounds, however inexpertly)
Navigation (using the stars at night to guide him home from the hunt)
Persuade (getting a better deal from the trader for the pelts)
Physical Sciences (meteorology) - keeping a weather eye out
Recon
Seafarer (or at least kayaking, to keep up with the groatie herd when they cross the Wide River twice a year)
Stealth (pretty much de rigueur for hunting)
Trade (gutting and skinning groaties)

And, of course, let's not forget Survival.

J-o-T is about being able to handle oneself. And just exactly how many TL 3 groatie hunting barbarians will you play in that TL 15 universe of shiny spaceships and robots anyway?

 

[BP]

Great thread!

This is helping me address one of the 'issues' I've had with the game mechanics - how to differentiate characters who have high/low combinations of characteristics. By using INT+EDU+DEX DMs /3 as a DM the same way JoT is (i.e. enhancing only non-skilled checks). Of course, there are some issues with this simple approach...

This will make characters with highs/lows in these characteristics stronger/weaker - which is exactly what I've been looking for. A character with Int 12, Edu 12 should not have the same DMs as one with Int 12, Edu 2, IMHO.
Need to cap the DM to 0 for characteristics plus this JoT, otherwise very high characteristics could result in +1 DM with no skill (before other DMs).
May need to break this into 2 specialties - JoT (Mental) and JoT (Physical).
And, I would probably drop JoT as a skill that can be directly acquired (characteristic enhancements then can apply).

Hmmm... lot to ponder.

A lot of what JoT helps with could be assessed through the general characteristics (especially education, intelligence and dexterity). But JoT distinguishes between persons of similar intelligence or education but have different potential for dealing with situations outside their experience.

Yes, but unfortunately, it also can contradict Int, Edu, and Dex.

Some people are just naturally good at winging it and jury-rigging.

True, but in my experience, 'naturally' actually means they have experience that is unknown to me - though, perhaps not explicit to the task at hand or formal, but related in some fashion.

In MGT game mechanics, though, JoT isn't natural - rather it is obtained in certain careers.

...As a GM I've never had a player who has the skill try to do open heart surgery, or rebulid a Jump Drive.

It's almost exclusively been used to jury rig repairs, figure out if a thing is functional, that sort of thing.

Same here, and I have always liked the concept of JoT.

In MGT, Diffuculty levels address this issue. Ex: open heart surgery should be a task with enough difficulty that it would be virtually impossible for a Level 2 DM only or below to perform (and thus, even JoT with other DMs is in this same boat).

...Some people can learn things quickly but learning to do something before you try to do it is not JoT to me. See below about Edu and Int. ...

Agreed.

...If you have a high Intelligence, Education, or both, you would get a bonus on lots of Traveller skill checks and this is not the same as JoT skill. ...

The way I've read it, MGT mechanics generally give DMs for Int or Edu, but not both. I originally felt inclined to do this, till I realized it would be unbalancing (i.e. like a PC with +4 DM for a bunch of Skill 0s).

...This also works for people that think that characters with low Int Edu should not have a lot of JoT - maybe JoT only applies to more physical tasks for them. ...

Having fine motor skills/dexterity, without aptitude (Int/Edu) to apply it does not fit my concept of JoT. To me, Int does not refer to IQ (a relative measure) nor does Edu strictly apply to formal education. I have known plenty of people who would rate a relatively low IQ (as the testing is naturally biased by social norms, not to mention language and test taking skills), yet are extremely intelligent (when the definition encompasses problem solving abilities, abstract conceptualization, etc.).

In game mechanics terms, this is already handled by the characteristic DM for Dex, Str, and End.

... he did not earn it like you did, it just fell from
the sky and hit him.

I love your expressions!

...BTW, thanks to everyone for not making this a flame war thread. It has been (and will continue to be) a very enjoyable exchange of ideas over a highly debated topic of years.

Most definitely!

 

[locarno24]

And just exactly how many TL 3 groatie hunting barbarians will you play in that TL 15 universe of shiny spaceships and robots anyway?

I feel a need to have a Groatie infestation on the player's ship, now.

 

[alex_greene]

I don't see anything about averaging the Int, Edu and Dex DMs.

If you have a very smart man, say an Int 15 barbarian, I don't see why he should not be able to use his +3 Int DM for a check requiring his Int. Same deal for a character required to make a task check for something like Athletics if his Dex was off the scale (12 or higher).

If you can't think of a suitable justification for the character to have the requisite experience in a skill to warrant allowing J-o-T to cover that skill, put something into his chargen history.

Okay, so you can't imagine a TL 3 barbarian having Computer and Zero-G. What if, some time during chargen, he got whisked away on a spaceship - even if only for a few days? After the culture shock, he'd have come back with some sort of experience of spaceboard operations, which he can call upon again the next time he finds himself on board a ship.

J-o-T is the ability to assimilate seemingly unrelated, trivial information into something useful to the character. Perhaps J-o-T's strength could come from being able to make new synaptic connections about something heretofore unknown:-

Learn Something New, J-o-T, Int, 1-6 hours, Routine(+0)

The first time a character tries out something really new, like Zero-G (only a Belter knows Zero-G from birth) perhaps not even J-o-T can save him the first time.

But the second time, well ...

 

[rust]

He might not have had the skill sets, but with J-o-T he could well have picked up a lot of experience of the following tasks, whether or not he had the skills for them ...

Of course, but then JoT should be dependent on age (the older, the more
and the more varied experience - which is why the tribe is led by the el-
ders) and Int (the higher the Int, the better the ability to understand pro-
blems and create solutions for them).

In the end, JoT either is implausible if it is used as written or consists of
referee interpretation only if used in a modified way.
And if I have to interpret based on the characters background, age, Int
and Edu anyway, JoT becomes just an additional unnecessary and com-
plicating factor for me - I can do that better without a JoT modifier get-
ting in the way.

However, this is of course only the way I see and play it, your jump fac-
tor may well be different.

If you can't think of a suitable justification for the character to have the requisite experience in a skill to warrant allowing J-o-T to cover that skill, put something into his chargen history.

Hmm ... introducing the trick to "retroengineer" a character's background
to enable him to use a skill modifier he would normally not get is quite a
can of worms, and I would really not like to open it.

This would force me to deal with a group of characters with unforeseeable
history, and to me this looks like a good way to turn a campaign into a ra-
ther silly one - you need a skill, rewrite your biography.

 

[alex_greene]

He might not have had the skill sets, but with J-o-T he could well have picked up a lot of experience of the following tasks, whether or not he had the skills for them ...

Of course, but then JoT should be dependent on age (the older, the more
and the more varied experience - which is why the tribe is led by the el-
ders) and Int (the higher the Int, the better the ability to understand pro-
blems and create solutions for them).

In the end, JoT either is implausible if it is used as written or consists of
referee interpretation only if used in a modified way.
And if I have to interpret based on the characters background, age, Int
and Edu anyway, JoT becomes just an additional unnecessary and com-
plicating factor for me - I can do that better without a JoT modifier get-
ting in the way.

However, this is of course only the way I see and play it, your jump fac-
tor may well be different.

If you can't think of a suitable justification for the character to have the requisite experience in a skill to warrant allowing J-o-T to cover that skill, put something into his chargen history.

Hmm ... introducing the trick to "retroengineer" a character's background
to enable him to use a skill modifier he would normally not get is quite a
can of worms, and I would really not like to open it.

This would force me to deal with a group of characters with unforeseeable
history, and to me this looks like a good way to turn a campaign into a ra-
ther silly one - you need a skill, rewrite your biography.

How else do you introduce "old flames" and new "old enemies" into the character's story? I just love those teasers in a show where some woman comes along, kicks the bad guys' behinds just as they were about to turn the protagonists into guacamole, then grin at the hero.

"Pleased to see me?"

Then the hero turns to the rest of the group and says "Lads ... meet the ex-wife."

It's science fiction. Nothing's set in stone. Not even the things the characters know for sure, such as statements like:-

"I have never been married."
"I know Kung Fu."
"I was born on Esalin."
"I served three terms in the Marines."
"I am 37 years old."
"I am human."

So you can give J-o-T a lot more latitutde and work out what it can do for you than if you just declared what it cannot do for you.

After all, it's such a rare skill, and it only turns up at chargen, not in play, so you're hardly likely to come across a situation where every character's got J-o-T-3 and where every player routinely rolls up his characters with J-o-T-3, now, are you?

 

[CosmicGamer]

...If you have a high Intelligence, Education, or both, you would get a bonus on lots of Traveller skill checks and this is not the same as JoT skill. ...

The way I've read it, MGT mechanics generally give DMs for Int or Edu, but not both. I originally felt inclined to do this, till I realized it would be unbalancing (i.e. like a PC with +4 DM for a bunch of Skill 0s).

Yes, yes, sorry for the confusion. I never meant that they would work together on the same task. Although often the skill task allows for either Int or Edu some do not. My statement saying 'both' just meant that a character with both would have a wider range of tasks that would get a single characteristic DM.

...This also works for people that think that characters with low Int Edu should not have a lot of JoT - maybe JoT only applies to more physical tasks for them.

Having fine motor skills/dexterity, without aptitude (Int/Edu) to apply it does not fit my concept of JoT. To me, Int does not refer to IQ (a relative measure) nor does Edu strictly apply to formal education. I have known plenty of people who would rate a relatively low IQ (as the testing is naturally biased by social norms, not to mention language and test taking skills), yet are extremely intelligent (when the definition encompasses problem solving abilities, abstract conceptualization, etc.).

So as a GM would you not allow a person with low Int&Edu to use their JoT skill? To clarify, the rules already allow the GM to decide when the JoT applies and my suggestion is that as GM you could decide that a person with low Int&Edu can not use it on any skill check that uses these characteristics. I am implying that the JoT skill could still be used on other skill checks though if the GM decides it is appropriate. Such as a high str char with no melee skill using their JoT when using a club.

In game mechanics terms, this is already handled by the characteristic DM for Dex, Str, and End.

With the vast # of skills in MgT (and growing with more added in supplements) I agree that stats pretty much cover a characters ability - including Int and Edu - and make it such that the JoT skill may not be worth the GM's hassle determining when it can and can't be used (but maybe our discussions will help some simplify it) and the JoT skill could probably be dropped and replaced with some other career oriented skill or as some have suggested, JoT is like having a boost on skills that are not part of your normal career so maybe you get to pick a level 0 skill (or more since it is level 0 and not a full level up) from outside your career.

 

[rust]

How else do you introduce "old flames" and new "old enemies" into the character's story?

What the player did not write into his character's biography during cha-
racter generation did not happen and does not exist - no "retconning".

After all, it's such a rare skill, and it only turns up at chargen ...

Whether it is rare depends on the character generation system used and
the way the players see this skill - with the point buy system JoT 1 can be
had for just 10 points, a cheap universal +1 modifier for all those skills the
player did not buy for his character.

 

[BP]

... My statement saying 'both' just meant that a character with both would have a wider range of tasks that would get a single characteristic DM. ...

Oops - my bad read!

...So as a GM would you not allow a person with low Int&Edu to use their JoT skill?

No, as a Referee, I am pretty lenient. :roll:

(I also have never played public walk in games or games where folk may already have a character - so chargen always goes by my 'rules'...)

In general, I do see a disjoint when mental abilities are extremely low and yet one has JoT skill. Of course, the odds of getting the skill are especially low in that situation - but, again depends on chargen method (as rust pointed out). My only real issue with JoT is how it is obtained - i.e. as a skill gained during a term with an average of 2 to 4 skills - and only for specific careers - and, irrespective of mental ability. As many have posted, it is more of a 'life skill'.

As to the game mechanics of implementing the skill - I don't mind them. In fact, to elaborate using CosmicGamer's earlier list...
[For conciseness, I'll drop the quote feature for his points listed below.]

...Although some folks are suggesting other options (see below) I think the OP asked about the JoT giving a small boost to ANY skill so, how about imagining a single term, 22 yo Traveller with very few skills and a not so extensive background but they got JoT and they can do the following better than other people with no skill.

Tasks on submarines and sail boats (having no skill already could mean no watching documentaries, reading of books, or playing war games about boats of any kind because this might give Seafarer 0)
- Can't speak to this - as I've zero experience in those areas. Might be interesting to see how my JoT skills could handle this 8)

A language skill check (when not only is this the first time they have heard the language being spoken, but they have never heard any other language their entire life)
- There are actually RL examples that might apply to this. Obviously picking correct verbalizations/physical representations out of 'thin air' is practically impossible, but 'communication' after hearing several phrases may be possible, even rudimentary grasp of 'structure' of the language.

Landing a space shuttle
- Having had the privilege in my youth of standing behind astronauts at JSC during simulator runs, I very much tend to agree. But, this is a task I would assign a very high Difficulty level to anyway (i.e. even for skilled astronauts).

Repairing a nuclear power plant when they have no other engineering or related skill
- Having inspected and been involved in inspection methods for such, I would say 'depends'. An obvious steam leak may be a physically addressable problem without any advanced skill or knowledge. Likewise, even electrical, if its the case of a fuse/breaker or something that just needs to be shorted. Even the realization of control rod purpose and valve gates and shunts could be achieved without being too much of a stretch (pretty pictures on controls). Again, Difficulty level should account for less plausible scenarios (in general) such as fried electronics.

Riding a horse (note that even if you have a garden or know how to train your dog to not poop inside that you might know how to ride a horse at level 0 in Traveller)
- I rode a horse for several hours with absolutely no instruction, example or experience. It was already saddled and I just went up to it and got on - and scared the crap out of everyone when they couldn't locate me. Of course, it was the horse's skill that counted the most here.
Now, breaking a wild horse would be another matter. But, again, Difficulty level. One doesn't expect a Skill 0 to have a good chance of doing this either.

Sculpting a piece of art when they have no other art skill
- ? People have been doing this (and other areas of art) for centuries in RL. It is how most forms started - and sometimes how they evolve.

Negotiating a peace treaty
- Why not? In RL there are no formal requirements for this to happen.

Recognizing a poisonous plant when they have never spent a single day outside the city
- Good one, though some poisonous plants have unusual coloring, shapes, etc. that warns animals, so it is plausible. Others look just like any other plant - and, again, would be subject to greater Difficulty.

Operating in a Zero-G environment
- Why not? Isn't too much different than operating in water (one method of astronaut training). Not sure what Skill 0 equivalent would equate to anyway...

The way I the rules for handling Task and Skill checks, there is no such thing as not being able to attempt something just because one lacks 'the skill' - but it is harder or numerically impossible based on Difficulty.

 

[Dave Chase]

Caveman learning things. :lol:

Maybe to help you all put that into prespecitve you all should try playing

Land of OG: The Role Playing Game

In that game every player will have to start being JoT in language. Why?

Well there are only 18 words allowed to be used while in character (or out of character when playing this game) and you might not know all 18 of them and most likely neither does the other players. Heck, players might not even know a sign common word out of that list (depending on how you roll at the start and how much you RPG into the game for experience/knowledge)

:lol:

Sorry, a bit off topic

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

Well there are only 18 words allowed to be used while in character (or out of character when playing this game) and you might not know all 18 of them ...

Somehow this reminds me of my holiday trip to rural Bulgaria ... :shock:

 

[alex_greene]

What the player did not write into his character's biography during character generation did not happen and does not exist - no "retconning".

Nonsense. No chargen can ever account for every single person met while on duty in one's service, every single brief flirtation, fling, one night stand; every scuffle outside O'Bzzrrk's on a Tenday night; every drunk encountered in every overnight stay in the drunk tank; every judge that fined you; every taxi driver encountered; every shopkeeper you bumped into; every concierge at every hotel and the special "services" offered therefrom; every schoolteacher you ever studied under; every single passer-by ...

A character's history remains as flexible as you like, until you set part of it in stone. In Star Trek Worf acquired an origin, a missus, a brother and a son over the course of his long story: O'Brien acquired a name, a wife, kids, hassle and even a major role in the spinoff.

Look at B5. We discovered that not only was John Sheridan destined to be The One; he'd also had an ex-wife, a former drug addict who happened to have fought on President Clark's side. We found that yet another of his wives, whom he thought had been lost, had actually been converted into the CPU of a Shadow ship.

We found that Talia Winters was a Psi Corps mole; that Dr Franklin had a father, and that he was estranged from him; we found that Lyta Alexander had been genetically enhanced to be a Vorlon Doomsday Device; and we even found that Delenn, Sheridan's third wife (and his last - the Minbari do love doing things in threes) had been a child of Valen, with genes inherited from Jeffrey Sinclair.

Look at 2000AD. After years of Strontium Dog, we eventually discovered that Johnny Alpha's Dad was Nelson Bunker Kreelman. Look at Judge Dredd. We learned that Dredd had been a clone of Judge Fargo; and damn if, until recently, Fargo had actually been alive.

The past is not set. We have no history save that which we make for ourselves.

Same goes for Traveller characters; and same goes for retconning events that happened in the characters' past that were too brief to include in the chargen on the sheet.

 

[dreamingbadger]

Jack of All Trades: The individual is proven capable of handling a wide variety of situations, and is resourceful in finding solutions and remedies. The well-rounded individual (the renaissance man, so to speak) is uncommon in all societies, but is naturally proficient when he or she occurs.
This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee. The jack of all trades can attempt activity which is not normally possible due to the absence of skills or expertise. Unskilled people have no idea how to even start many projects; jack of all trades can apply this skill to such a project as if he or she has the skill. Jack of all trades can be considered to confer skill level-0 in every other skill (but never level-1).
For example, one of a group of adventurers arrives at an aging crisis while on an expedition into the wilds of an unsettled planet. No one has medical expertise. Jack of all trades can be applied as a substitute for medical skill in this situation; the referee should assume that the person has studied independently at some time or has seen such a crisis previously and knows something of what to do. When using jack of all trades skill, the referee should also consider appropriate personal characteristics (intelligence, education), availability of equipment (drugs, medical instruments), and other factors (weather, shelter, or the specific situation).

So, is (or should it be) JoT truly a skill or lifestyle.
Does there truly exist in the real world someone who has the basic understanding and abilities to make an attempt to try or do any action, knowledge or ability?

Please no flame wars over this question. Just opinions and reason for those opinoins.



To start, I say yes there are some indivdiuals who have made a life out of doing odd jobs, reading lots and have a natural appitude toward any and all skills. But I also say that it should be more of a life style or career than a skill.

Possibly the reason for the skill was to represent those individuals in the initial Traveller but not give them a career of sorts (that is until the career Other came out.)

Dave Chase

I have met people, who just seem to have a knack of picking stuff up fast, usually it is associated with a particular type of thing, but occasionaly their are people who are genuinely sort of "not crap at anything they turn their hand to"; which is what JOT is for me, I dont think I have ever seen a character with JOT3, but JOT-1 is still a -2 penality.

I have also met a genuine ploymath who is just brilliant at anything they turn their hands to, and quiet intimidating from a distance but, irritatingly quite nice when you get to know him, this would be Master of All Trades I guess There are a couple of historical figures, A crickiter,diplomat chemist from the 1800's is one who i remember but not his name.

I don't believe JOT unbalnces the game or is unrealistic as a result.

@BP diefinately agree most people seem to forget that difficulty levels still aply to people with JOT...