JoT

[alex_greene]

I'd like to point out one aspect of J-o-T which quite clearly shows its limitations. If a situation occurs where the Referee requires that the character actually needs the skill, J-o-T will fail the character.

Some examples off the top of my head:-

- Performing immediate, urgent field surgery on a patient in a public place;

- Trying to land a fixed-wing passenger liner with an incapacitated flight crew and the passenger has zero flight experience of any kind (not even Air/Raft experience back home);

- Trying to sail a wooden-hulled TL 4 ship (character comes from a TL 15 world);

- A character from a waterworld stranded on a desert planet with zero Survival expertise, and vice versa;

- A character with zero practical relevant experience attempting to set up a laboratory experiment, archaeological dig or religious ceremonial ritual (e.g. presiding over some TL 2 world's fertility ritual, or a human attempting to conduct a Droyne Coyning ceremony);

- A character trying to find air on a vacuum world or in space;

- Any non-psion attempting to use a psionic talent of any sort. Good luck trying to teleport out of that burning room.

(Same actually goes for a psion attempting a psionic Talent he does not have; e.g. a telepath attempting Telekinesis without access to the Telekinesis Talent).

J-o-T works just fine. You can see its limitations quite clearly. You don't need to nerf it; you just tell the player that the character cannot complete the task attempted on the grounds that he has just tried something impossible.

 

[rust]

J-o-T works just fine. You can see its limitations quite clearly. You don't need to nerf it; you just tell the player that the character cannot complete the task attempted on the grounds that he has just tried something impossible.

I think I could provide just as many examples of "borderline cases" where
the limitations of the Jack of All Trades skill would be difficult to see and
where an annoying discussion between referee and player could be a li-
kely result.

In the end it is probably a matter of taste, and I am among those referees
who very much prefer clearly defined skills that make it easy for referee
and players to decide what exactly a skill enables a character to do. A
player simply should not have to ask whether his character can do some-
thing with a specific skill, and a referee should not have to define the li-
mitations of a skill in each case.

Everything more general would in my view be something to be handled by
the attributes of the character, in the case of the Jack of All Trades skill
by a character's Intelligence (how easy is it for him to comprehend an un-
familiar situation and draw the right conclusions ?) and Education (how ma-
ny generally useful informations does he have stored in his memory ?).

 

[alex_greene]

I'd allow a free roll of Intelligence or Education to allow the character to get a clue that he might not succeed in this task, even with J-o-T-3 - or at least for the Referee to get a chance to tell the player 'Your character sees the wisdom you don't. At the last minute, he realises that he cannot complete this task successfully; not with an overall -12 DM. Even with J-o-T he could only describe his efforts as "a blind stab in the dark."'

Further, I still wouldn't let a character from a TL 3 world attempt to land a TL 12 starship based on the cockpit's instrument readings, or a TL 15 character attempt to shoot a flintlock ("What caliber rounds does it take? Where does the magazine go?")

 

[locarno24]

I think I could provide just as many examples of "borderline cases" where
the limitations of the Jack of All Trades skill would be difficult to see and
where an annoying discussion between referee and player could be a li-
kely result.

Yes but it's a situation that's going to come up repeatedly anyway. This is exactly the same debate that was had for individuals who have managed to get a maxed-out EDU stat - all right, we get that they're smart, but there's only so much they can have learned unless they've spent your entire life moving between doctorates. Some knowledge checks - and which ones will be up to the GM to define - cannot rely on common sense, deductive logic and mental arithmetic; if no-one's taught you an alien language then you can't read it, simple as.

Equally, a suitably dextrous individual might be able to pilot a shuttle down on manual without training - here's the stick, move it back and forth, keep us level. Simple enough premise. The problem is, that without pilot/0, computer/0 or something of that nature he or she wouldn't be able to switch the manual controls on in the first place.


It's somewhat akin to the WHFRP/Dark Heresy system - some skills are basic (like climbing, dodging, lying); you can attempt them without training, it's just almost a given that you'll fail. But some things (magic, medicine, literacy) you can't even try.

 

[BP]

MGT's Jack of all Trades implementation seems a great substitute for converting existing characters from CT to MGT. I haven't tested it yet, but gave the skill to few PCs so we can. Some thoughts:

As a skill, it has special handling, which makes it more of something that doesn't seem fit as something one 'picks up' in a career term - its too broad for that. Seems a better fit as a mustering out benefit or package skill, but even then it has, I feel, a greater problem. To me it represents a general combination of INT, EDU and DEX that facilitates greater success. Thus, a character below average in these areas would seem a poor fit for this 'skill'. (Though one could also argue 'dumb' luck - but that's hardly something one would pick up on the job )

Basing JoT on INT, EDU, and DEX would result in a certain amount of 'doubling' up DM benefits. However, it also makes a certain sense - a high combined Intellect (INT) with a broad base of knowledge (EDU) should have an added advantage over someone who excels in just one of these areas. So maybe JoT level = sum of DMs of these skills divided by 2 - where JoT still only applies to applicable unskilled checks...

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I think I could provide just as many examples of "borderline cases" where
the limitations of the Jack of All Trades skill would be difficult to see and
where an annoying discussion between referee and player could be a li-
kely result.

Yes but it's a situation that's going to come up repeatedly anyway. This is exactly the same debate that was had for individuals who have managed to get a maxed-out EDU stat - all right, we get that they're smart, but there's only so much they can have learned unless they've spent your entire life moving between doctorates. Some knowledge checks - and which ones will be up to the GM to define - cannot rely on common sense, deductive logic and mental arithmetic; if no-one's taught you an alien language then you can't read it, simple as.

Equally, a suitably dextrous individual might be able to pilot a shuttle down on manual without training - here's the stick, move it back and forth, keep us level. Simple enough premise. The problem is, that without pilot/0, computer/0 or something of that nature he or she wouldn't be able to switch the manual controls on in the first place.


It's somewhat akin to the WHFRP/Dark Heresy system - dome skills are basic (like climbing, dodging, lieing); you can attempt them without training, it's just almost a given that you'll fail. But some things you can't even try.

Agreed. To be fair few characters have more than JoT 1, which still leaves you with a -2 on the skill check. If the character can show that what he is attempting is related to another skill he has, then fine. If not, he will just have to take the -3 (not always a problem on a simple task if you have the time ...)

Egil

 

[Dave Chase]

My apologies, I should have posted where the JoT information came from along with the MgT version of JoT.

Thanks to those who clarified the difference before I got back. ( I didn't see any need to repost what others had posted. )

So, in the end (or at least this far into the discuss) I still think that JoT should be a live style. Whether a career or not, I am still open to consider.

Dave Chase

 

[Treebore]

I think I qualify as a JoT character, and I would say it is a lifestyle, but it also took many years for me to get "there" as well.

As a kid/teenager I worked construction jobs, lumber jacking, hunted avidly and read voraciously, etc.. In the
Navy I was a Missile Tech, so I learned a lot about working high voltage, high pressure air, high pressure hydraulics, calibrating gages and wrenches/screwdrivers, soldering, computer language, reading flow charts, training others, shooting a pistol, shotgun and military rifle in addition to what I learned hunting, radiation, radiation measurement, RAD control, trained extensively in Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Judo and Jujutsu (Japanese) and even learned the basics of wielding a Katana. I also did a lot, and I mean a LOT of damage control training, from fighting flooding of compartments to do real live fire in burning compartments under controlled conditions, because I loved doing it and volunteered to go every time I was given the chance. I also know how to launch load and launch and target torpedoes as well as the same with nuclear missiles. I have also qualified CPR and First Responder many times in my life. After the Navy I went on to get degree's in Biology and Psychology (Bachelor's of Science) as well as have a minimum of 15 hours in Political Science, History, Math, Probability and Statistics, English, and Anthropology, which are all "minors" in education speak. I at one time was also certified in C++, I have home schooled my 3 kids, and my two oldest have both started College when they were 16, my youngest is 14. I also know how to operate heavy machinery such as front loaders, back hoes, and to do pretty major repair of hoses, hydraulic rams and the like.
I also went on to learn how to facet and cab gemstones and semi precious stones, as well as identify them and become so thoroughly familiar with gemstones that if they were from South America or Africa I could probably tell you which mine it came from due to the inclusions it had and what patterns the inclusions had in the gem material. Something GIA certified people cannot do. I also became proficient at molds and castings as well as setting and ran my own business for 10 years, with 2 now deceased US Senators (mainly their wives) as my past customers.

So I would say I definitely qualify for the JoT skill in Traveller terms.

So definitely a life style, because I like learning, so when my brakes go out on my car, I learn to fix or change them myself, same with alternators, radiators, transmissions and the like. I replace the floors in my house, fix the plumbing, run new wiring, build book shelves, cabinets, chests, do dry wall, walls and ceilings, install new showers and bathtubs, and I could still go on, but I think I have covered the majority of my "skill sets". Pretty much anything I have been exposed to through out my whole life I took the time to learn what I could. Even putting in septic tanks.

So JoT is a very "realistic" skill, but there definitely are not a lot of people like me. Very few, in fact.

 

[BP]

Yep - JoT DMs are certainly believable...

And as you posted - it is more a lifestyle thing than a 'skill' picked up in just one term of a career.

You've described:

• A bunch of skills, acquired over a number of years, with a good foundation (early 'trades' experience) and formal and informal training
• Physical ability
• And, one presumes (as obviously did the military), mental aptitude

To me, those things are represented in traveller by EDU, DEX and INT respectively, plus that other element I have had to create house rules to account for - interdisciplinary skills.

(And, yes, it may seem this 'skill' is somewhat rare, but fortunately there are a lot of folks in this world, so the numbers are still impressive... )

 

[rust]

So I would say I definitely qualify for the JoT skill in Traveller terms.

Sorry, but I do not think so.

It shows that you are able and willing to learn new things, but JoT as
described is not about the ability to learn (and therefore has no influ-
ence on learning or improving skills), it is about already having all the
knowledge and being able to apply it.

For example, I have no doubt that you can learn to read a ground pe-
netrating radar scan of an archaeological site, but this would not be JoT
skill - with JoT skill you should already be able to understand the scan
better than someone else who also never learned to do it.

And this is a kind of miraculous ability which I simply do not consider as
in any way plausible.

 

[rinku]

As a further comment on the skill, there DOES exist within the SF genre a tradition of general resourcefulness and competence. Heinlein protagonists fairly reek of it, even if young and undertrained. And Maguyver is the poster child for the skill. Even if unrealistic, there is justification for the concept from source fiction.

But if you want, break it up into smaller competencies such as Scholar, Athlete, Warrior, Technician, Manager, Socialite etc to give narrower bonuses on more focussed skill areas.

 

[rust]

But if you want, break it up into smaller competencies such as Scholar, Athlete, Warrior, Technician, Manager, Socialite etc to give narrower bonuses on more focussed skill areas.

Another approach could be to allow the use of JoT skill for all the skills
of a character's careers (Personal Development, Service Skills, Advan-
ced Education and the specific Specialist skills), but not to allow it for all
other skills.

For example, a character who served in the Entertainer and the Rogue
careers could use it for all the general skills of these careers as well as
for the skills of his specializations in these careers, but not for Survival,
which is not a skill of the Entertainer or Rogue career.

 

[BP]

...For example, I have no doubt that you can learn to read a ground penetrating radar scan of an archaeological site, but this would not be JoT skill - with JoT skill you should already be able to understand the scan better than someone else who also never learned to do it.

That is my take on it as well (the way the DMs work). However, I not only think that is plausible - I would say, even though I have never learned it, I would be fairly confident I would have a fair chance at doing so... perhaps even better than someone with the equivalent of Sensor (Ground Penetrating Radar) 0.

But this is because I have the aptitude and lots of mutli-disciplinary experience (including interpreting NDI em scans, initially with no formal education or reference material). I very often walk into new 'fields' with virtually no direct experience nor training, yet can do in minutes, hours and days what takes others weeks or more to do, despite their direct training and experience - and successfully.

Of course, I also have lots of experience doing just that (ok, higher JoT level...). And the people who are often impressed by this are completely missing the fact that I have thousands of man hours in related areas of experience and knowledge (and have literately read thousands of technical works from people more qualified than myself on a broad range of subjects).

MGT's approach - with JoT allowing upto the equivalent of a Skill 0 seems plausible (situationally). In the case of an average difficulty check, that still only equates to a 42% chance of success (sans any other positive DMs like taking extra time). In the case of something like a sensor check - JoT represents the ability to come on something with no experience and still have a fair chance to 'guess' how to make it work (again, I have done this quite successful a great number of times in RL - in very technical areas to boot).

I just don't see this as a 'skill' a character should pickup as one of possibly several in a four year term. And, it should match attributes (JoT 3 with Int and Edu 2 just don't seem right ).

 

[Treebore]

So I would say I definitely qualify for the JoT skill in Traveller terms.

Sorry, but I do not think so.

It shows that you are able and willing to learn new things, but JoT as
described is not about the ability to learn (and therefore has no influ-
ence on learning or improving skills), it is about already having all the
knowledge and being able to apply it.

For example, I have no doubt that you can learn to read a ground pe-
netrating radar scan of an archaeological site, but this would not be JoT
skill - with JoT skill you should already be able to understand the scan
better than someone else who also never learned to do it.

And this is a kind of miraculous ability which I simply do not consider as
in any way plausible.

I think your forgetting that JoT assumes a wide basis of knowledge was accumulated over a given characters life, professional or otherwise, and my life definitely illustrates that. I am in my 40's, the age of many Traveller PC's I see.

 

[Dave Chase]

Another approach could be to allow the use of JoT skill for all the skills
of a character's careers (Personal Development, Service Skills, Advan-
ced Education and the specific Specialist skills), but not to allow it for all
other skills.

For example, a character who served in the Entertainer and the Rogue
careers could use it for all the general skills of these careers as well as
for the skills of his specializations in these careers, but not for Survival,
which is not a skill of the Entertainer or Rogue career.

I like this idea (restriction). I think it places a better control for the GM on what a JoT skilled character can do. (or be allowed to do)

Treebore,
Sounds a bit like me but Army Scout time instead of Navy. I did more MA weapons than you but out of my 12+ years of college I never got a degree (but I held 8 different majors and 2 were languages).

General Contractor, professional welder, Custom carpentry, know some vet stuff, lots of leather work, Horsemen ship (know how to shoe but I don't do it), Computer IT for years (mainly software then later hardware), not only learned BLS and ALS but was instructor for BLS and lower courses, instructor of military skills for over a decade, farmer of grains and forage (horse hay), and etc and etc.

It's a life style (hands down)

But, Treebore, I think you mentioned something of very notable interest, the individual must want to learn and live that way. I always hated the joke can do it all but master of none. I have been (and maybe? still) better at some of the above skills than many of my peers through the years.

The difference is that I don't make a career out of one profession. I get bored to easily after 3 to 5 years on most 'professional' jobs.

Except farming and outdoor stuff.

Maybe to make it a life style in the game, one (a character) can not ever have any skill above 3 (CT standard, not sure what the mid range skill is for MgT). Other wise once you hit skill level 4 in an area you become that professional skill/job title.

BTW, thanks to everyone for not making this a flame war thread. It has been (and will continue to be) a very enjoyable exchange of ideas over a highly debated topic of years.

Dave Chase

 

[rinku]

A lot of what JoT helps with could be assessed through the general characteristics (especially education, intelligence and dexterity). But JoT distinguishes between persons of similar intelligence or education but have different potential for dealing with situations outside their experience.

Some people are just naturally good at winging it and jury-rigging.

 

[TC]

As a player I've often seen GM's render JOT useless, giving no reasonable chance of ever using it.

As a GM I've never had a player who has the skill try to do open heart surgery, or rebulid a Jump Drive.

It's almost exclusively been used to jury rig repairs, figure out if a thing is functional, that sort of thing.

Its up to the GM to rule if it fits, generally we have all unconciously worked from the angle of I have a simular or related skill, can I try..... type situation.

Personally as long as a player doesn't try to abuse it, its never a problem.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just for the record. I don't think I've generated a single character yet that had more than JoT 1.

definitely a life style, because I like learning

Some people can learn things quickly but learning to do something before you try to do it is not JoT to me. See below about Edu and Int.

But if you want, break it up into smaller competencies such as Scholar, Athlete, Warrior, Technician, Manager, Socialite etc to give narrower bonuses on more focussed skill areas.

Another approach could be to allow the use of JoT skill for all the skills
of a character's careers (Personal Development, Service Skills, Advan-
ced Education and the specific Specialist skills), but not to allow it for all
other skills.

Interesting but personally I take into consideration character backgrounds when determining difficulties so I don't have much need to use JoT like this. For example, someone with a background in the army could be more likely to come up with a successful battle plan than an entertainer.

Off the top of my head I just had this idea. Not sure if it is any good but might spawn an idea for someone else. JoT skill can provide a max modification of 1 (I would still want to use the skill at least a little as it was originally intended and not strip it down too much) plus 1 per term served in a career that can acquire that skill? Of course this will require additional record keeping to track the JoT level for the skills - something I'm opposed to.

Some people are just naturally good at winging it and jury-rigging.

Some careers have no chance of gaining JoT skill though so this seams to imply that the game mechanics are that JoT is a skill taught in some careers. Of course some careers can't improve some characteristics so maybe JoT could be like exercising your characteristic to improve it like working out to build strength. See also my comment on Int and Edu bellow.


Sorry, but I'm missing the point of some of the people pointing out their own personal backgrounds, abilities, and skills.

I'm not saying anyone isn't brilliant and resourceful, I'm just trying to break things down to game terms.

I think I qualify as a JoT character, and I would say it is a lifestyle, but it also took many years for me to get "there" as well... [long list of achievements over many years] ...So I would say I definitely qualify for the JoT skill in Traveller terms.

While it is still possible you qualify for JoT, even in 'Traveller terms' I don't think your example is a 'Traveller term' if it takes many years. In Traveller, a 22 yo character without anything close to your extensive background can have JoT. EDIT: Perhaps it just won't be applicable in as many situations. See below.

Even though it says 'you' the rest of this is not referring to Treebore or any specific reader.

If you have a high Intelligence, Education, or both, you would get a bonus on lots of Traveller skill checks and this is not the same as JoT skill.

If you know more than one language and talk about being able to pick up on other languages, to me this relates more to Traveller skill specialties. Any language skill at all gives language 0 to all languages - this is better than the highest JoT level. Several skills have many specialties.

If you have this background and can also do that. The book already indicates multiple skills can be used to accomplish the same task. Take a look at the science skills. Having just a couple science skills with their "free" corresponding level 0 counterparts and I can see a character doing a large variety of things without JoT. Like a chemist trying to repair a computer with their level 0 electronics skill.


Although some folks are suggesting other options (see below) I think the OP asked about the JoT giving a small boost to ANY skill so, how about imagining a single term, 22 yo Traveller with very few skills and a not so extensive background but they got JoT and they can do the following better than other people with no skill.
- Tasks on submarines and sail boats (having no skill already could mean no watching documentaries, reading of books, or playing war games about boats of any kind because this might give Seafarer 0)
- A language skill check (when not only is this the first time they have heard the language being spoken, but they have never heard any other language their entire life)
- Landing a space shuttle
- Repairing a nuclear power plant when they have no other engineering or related skill
- Riding a horse (note that even if you have a garden or know how to train your dog to not poop inside that you might know how to ride a horse at level 0 in Traveller)
- Sculpting a piece of art when they have no other art skill
- Negotiating a peace treaty
- Recognizing a poisonous plant when they have never spent a single day outside the city
- Operating in a Zero-G environment

I think it is not too likely.

For folks suggesting other options, I would not call this a 'house rule' because the rules allow the GM to decide if the JoT skill is applicable. You are just simplifying the decision.

Also, my take on the rules is that if two characters with the same level of JoT try to perform the same task, one might be allowed because of their background while the other is denied the use of their JoT.

EDIT: Another thought. Have the JoT only be usable on skills that use a specific characteristic. Maybe let the player select the characteristic or maybe it only works with the highest characteristic or maybe it only works with characteristics above a certain threshold.

This also works for people that think that characters with low Int Edu should not have a lot of JoT - maybe JoT only applies to more physical tasks for them.

 

[rust]

I think your forgetting that JoT assumes a wide basis of knowledge was accumulated over a given characters life, professional or otherwise, and my life definitely illustrates that. I am in my 40's, the age of many Traveller PC's I see.

If JoT would assume this, I would find it a far more acceptable concept.

However, the 22 years old Barbarian groatle hunter from the TL 0 pla-
net Farthestout with his Int of 3 and Edu of 3 gets exactly the same mo-
difier from his JoT skill as someone with a lot of life experience in many
careers.

JoT would make him the equivalent of someone like you, with your accu-
mulated knowledge and skills, although he never did anything to accumu-
late knowledge and skills - he did not earn it like you did, it just fell from
the sky and hit him.

 

[rinku]

However, the 22 years old Barbarian groatle hunter from the TL 0 pla-
net Farthestout with his Int of 3 and Edu of 3 gets exactly the same mo-
difier from his JoT skill as someone with a lot of life experience in many
careers.

Yeah, but you can only fairly compare him to someone else with Int and Edu of 3. No matter how much JoT he has, he'll still be an ignorant, dumb schmuck. But perhaps a lucky one.