Javelin

[Denalor]

Javelin is size H as in the table
This emphasizes the inability to be parried by anything less than kite shield

What is the size considering Impaling, i.e. does it cause -40% for H ... or
e.g. -20% for a M-sized weapon (short spear is M-sized) ?


I’d say -20%... simply because of the different reasoning concerning arrows... those arrows are not size H of the propelling weapon, but S... and a Javelin is more similar to a short spear than to a long spear, greataxe etc. Gee, even the two-handed longspear is only size L and not H...

Another question about Javelins:
Obviously in this particular case you may use Pin Weapon as an offensive CM, not defensive. However, can you choose this CM only upon a critical or is the Javelin excempt of this criteria ?

PS.: the impale of all ranged weapons is at stake here ;-).
What about Arbalest Bolts ?
What about an impaled Trident ?

Also, what about an entangling Bola ? Surely, the free Trip Opponent does not apply ?

 

[ThatGuy]

I think the easiest way to deal with missile size by the book, otherwise you end up house ruling it all over creation...
Which is going to slow down the games and make for a lot of rules lawyering IMHO...
Any official ruling from the big guys?

 

[Denalor]

Page 72
In case of projectile weapons, this does not relate to the firing weapon itself, but rather how 'forceful'
its ammunition is

Page 70
Shortspear: Heftier than a javelin, fitted with a broader head
Size M
ENC 2

Page 69
Longspear: ... is a lenghty piercing weapon with a broad bladed head
Size L
ENC 2

Page 69
Lance: ... designed to be used from the back of a mount
Size H
ENC 3

Page 70
Trident: ... is a three-pronged or bladed spear
Size M (close combat)
Size L (ranged combat)
ENC 2

Page 73
Javelin: ... is a spear-like weapon with a narrow, pointed head
ENC 1

So from the Trident, we can deduct that there's a difference between a the same weapon being thrown and the same weapon being used in melee.
The reason is obvious: the rules needed concerning parrying ability.

From ENC-comparison, from one-handed vs two-handed user requirements and from decription-comparison it becomes obvious that a Javelin is smaller/lighter than a shortspear.

To consider the Javelin as being H would be like comparing it to a lance !
Just consider the footsoldier who wass just impaled by a charging knight and who has that 3+m long lance sticking in his chest... and then consider one yho only has a javelin sticking in his leg... and both suffer the same malus ?
Give me a break !

 

[kurgan84]

Just consider the footsoldier who wass just impaled by a charging knight and who has that 3+m long lance sticking in his chest... and then consider one yho only has a javelin sticking in his leg... and both suffer the same malus ?

It depend of what you mean with javelin ?? If you talk about Pilum, Falarica, Soliferrum....it's make sense !

From wikipedia Pilum

The late Roman writer Vegetius, in his work De Re Militari, wrote:

As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches (279 mm) or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty

..In one description, one of the two iron nails that held the iron shaft in place was replaced with a weak wooden pin that would break on impact causing the shaft to twist sideways.

A pilum, having penetrated a shield through a small hole and its shank having bent would now be difficult to remove. It is likely that the shaft would hit the ground and thus stop the charging enemy in his tracks.

An enemy, if not killed by the pilum, would have little time before closing with the legionaries and would have to discard his now-unwieldy shield before going into combat

So if a pilum impale, you could'nt use it again but it become very cumbersome !

 

[Loz]

The rules intention with all weapons was to keep them optimal without lots of different stats for similar kinds of weapon. The javelin is designed with the pilum in mind, but also lighter spear-like weapons that are specifically designed to be thrown and impale with force.

 

[Denalor]

I wasn't implying that the Javelin should not be able to impale, nor was I'm implying that it would be almost impossible to parry it (thus the H size).

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

All I find extremly hard to grasp is that once the weapon is actually sticking in you, the Javelin would cause as much discomfort (i.e. -40% to all skills) as a 3-times as long, perhaps twice as heavy lance...

 

[ThatGuy]

I think for the average human, the difference might be negligible.
I for one wouldn't want to be impaled by either, but a flying javelin thrown with force...Ouch!
The scenes in the movie Troy in which javelins are thrown...I mean, The hit that Hectors lieutenant takes in the neck, the throw in the Thessaly champion makes...those look like a pretty H type impale to me...
I think the an Arbalest bolt, as thick as a mans arm, is a definate H. I mean, those things would pin men into the ground with the man still standing...
Some of the others, like a trident, I can understand the desire to adjust, but it just seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me IMHO...

 

[Denalor]

[Shrug]
As said before, I do agree 100% for the Javelin to be considered H at the time of the actual impact. Only a H shield (Kite, Hoplite) can completely block the damage, all other shields will at most parry half damage.
As a consequence, once the Javelin does injure the foe, you open up the Impale CM (given a difference in the level of success, of course).
That is not the point here.

The point is what happens afterwards

But then I'm trying to imagine a man who has a roughly 1m shaft sticking in his chest.
And I'm comparing it to a knightly charge where a man was impaled with a lance and that big stick is still sticking in him (the knight wasn't able to retrieve it and got killed afetrwards, whatever, the end of the story being that the lance is still sticking in the man's chest).
Now try to visualize the difference between a man having ~30cm sticking out of his back and ~30cm out of his front, imagine the touble this guy will have in anything he does... and then compare it with another man who has 150cm sticking out both sides...

[Shrug]

think for the average human, the difference might be negligible.

Have you ever been on a long backpack trip through rough country ? Have you then not cursed that damned tent, because its poles required you to strap the whole thing to the side of the pack, because putting it on top of your pack would have it stick out to the left and to the right, with the effect that you always get caught by trees, the rock to your side becasue you're walking along a narrow ledge or whatever ? Now imagine that your manoeuvering width would not be 1,5m but ~4m... and the additional weight you carry would not be 0,5kg but 5kg... do you truly think there's no difference ?

[Shrug] I simply cannot understand

 

[kintire]

You don't want to be applying to much realism to this. The actual facts are that if either a lance or a javelin are sticking far enough into any part of your body to be stuck there, you are Out of the Fight, BIGTIME.

If you prefer, imagine that a lance that has stuck into some one has broken. I just don't believe that the human body can retain something as heavy as an unborken lance

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

If you prefer, imagine that a lance that has stuck into some one has broken. I just don't believe that the human body can retain something as heavy as an unborken lance

I must first state that my knowledge of anatomy is 25+ years old — but I did actually do anatomy at Art School (that tells you that I'm getting old as they don't study it any more!).

Kintire is I feel right, a war-lance would likely either not remain impaled, or unbroken in a body. It needs to be remembered that the physical forces involved are extremely great, and the human body is quite "tough".

I'd say a lance fully thrust into the chest or pelvis would be pretty much guaranteed to break... the lance-shaft is simply not strong enough (even if made of ash) to withstand the leverage and flexing forces.

If thrust into any other area, it would just rip out (although probably breaking in the process).

That's my limits of knowledge of corporal resilience.

However, I also can't see that armour would make much difference, due to the lance's taper — although piercing through a shield first might... but in any case, any rider holding on to the lance would be next to impossible.

Late Medieval war lances (and many Islamic lances, which had a more "spear-like" shaft) were partially hollowed-out before re-gluing the two halves back together, to reduce weight, not to mention the use of "block-construction" that started to be used at the end of the 15th century. Their general make-up not really being designed to survive beyond a successful impact.

All in all, I think any lance would not likely remain in a body and whole (unless intentionally dropped, in which case, if it didn't snap, it might well rip out any way under it's own weight).

The rules are intentionally abstracted a bit in any case.

 

[Rurik]

I agree that having any weapon stuck in your body sucks big time.

But the problem is that missle weapons have their sized rating based on different criteria than melee weapons, and the bulk is not part of the criteria for missle Size.

The Trident is a perfect example of the problem Denalor brings up. It is Size M as a Melee weapon and Size L when thrown. So being impaled by a thrown Trident is a bigger penalty than being imaled by a thrusted Trident. Likewise being impaled by an arrow by the RAW is a -40% penalty, while being impaled by a longspear is only -30% and a shortspear -20%. It just doesn't seem sensible.

Missles really need a seperate rating for Size (reflecting ability to parry) and the penalty for being impaled.

 

[Rurik]

You don't want to be applying to much realism to this. The actual facts are that if either a lance or a javelin are sticking far enough into any part of your body to be stuck there, you are Out of the Fight, BIGTIME.

If you prefer, imagine that a lance that has stuck into some one has broken. I just don't believe that the human body can retain something as heavy as an unbroken lance

But the rules do not say the lance is broken. You can withdraw the lance with a brawn roll and use it again. Nor or you out of the fight by nature of being impaled, you are in the fight at -30% (assuming of course the wound did not take you out of the fight due to wound level of course, which is likely in and of itself ).

If you start making spot rules based on individual weapons to cover things like breakage you might as well add spot rules to deal with the unbalanced impale modifiers for missiles.

 

[soltakss]

You don't want to be applying to much realism to this. The actual facts are that if either a lance or a javelin are sticking far enough into any part of your body to be stuck there, you are Out of the Fight, BIGTIME.

If you prefer, imagine that a lance that has stuck into some one has broken. I just don't believe that the human body can retain something as heavy as an unborken lance

When I was in the St John Ambulance Brigade, many years ago, I knew someone who was at a Sealed Knot re-enactment and the re-enactors had gone a bit crazy with the pikes, so they had to deal with someone with a pike stuck through them. Their story was that although the manual says to leave impaled objects stuck in, they pulled it out to make things easier.

If an English Civil War pike can be carried in a body then so can a lance.