Jack of all Trades?...

[Oaty_bars]

I've had and idea, a rough idea

Instead of having the odd and powerfull (powerfull in the sense that if you have high stats and this skill you can do anything) JoAT's as a skill

What about something else?,


What I was thinking was to have a much narrower version of this effect (and hence reduce its power) for everyone to use,

This would be based on your career and terms served (i.e Scout- 4 or Merchant- 3 or Marine - 2 etc)
(I always liked the idea of using your characters term score for something, lol)

You Roll 2d6 + Terms, (you roll each time you need to make a skill check for a skill you don't have)

and need to score 13 or more to qualify for this bonus, (12 or less having no effect)

A roll of
13 = -2,
14 = -1,
15+ = 0,

BUT you can only apply this bonus to a skill you could get via that career path (during Character gen in that Career) and not a skill outside of that service, so no trading skill for the Scout etc

So the more Exp your character has had in that career, the higher the chance he would have picked up some relevent and useful infomation,
but must be within that scope of exp only,

(I'd dump the JoAT skill, just treat this skill if rolled during character gen as an ACE, that lets them choose a skill from any career even one outside their own,)

Like I said this is rough right now, but what you think?
(needless to say, but if you are happy with JoAT as it is, and have nothing positive to add, then don't add anything)

 

[rust]

I'd dump the JoAT skill, just treat this skill if rolled during character gen as an ACE, that lets them choose a skill from any career even one outside their own

This is exactly how I handle it.

I have tried to come up with another solution that would make sense with-
in my setting, but until now I have not found one.
While your idea to connect the skill with the number of terms served is a
very interesting one, in my view it also is an additional bit of bookkeeping,
and I therefore prefer to let the player choose any one skill that fits in well
with his character's concept.

 

[Oaty_bars]

But those are too different ideas I put up,

1) A replacement system for JoAT based on Career Terms
(no book keeping, just an extra roll of dice thats it, sometimes you would qualify other times you don't)

and

2) A function for the JoAT skill if rolled during Character Gen,

If this doesn't make sense it could be because the way I discribed it, if so just let me know what doesn't make sense and I'll try to rephrase it,

 

[Anonymous]

I have always used the JOT skill like this: it is basically about being adaptable and transferring skills in an abstract way from one task to another.
It allows the user to "stretch" his existing skills into "neighbouring" or "adjacent" or similar, related ones (a pilot aircraft skill +JOT lets you have a go at flying pretty much anything, the more different it is the bigger ngative DM.)
Also If the player can offer a convincing blag they can stretch this quite far and I let them have a roll at whatever dm seems appropriate. Its good because it makes them role play - they have to come up with a reason (e.g. "There was LOTs of computer use in my electronics training and being JOT I picked up a bit" could seem reasonable........OR...."I can shoot a gun and operate a nav system so I put them together with my JOT and attempt some ships gunnery").

 

[rust]

If this doesn't make sense ...

Oh, it does make sense, it just would not do so within the framework of
my specific setting.

 

[Oaty_bars]

Thats not what I mean,

Okay, example

GM: "Your ship is in freefall, you have 20 minutes before the gas gaint will crush your ship like a fat person sitting on an empty soda can, you need to get the powerplant back online...."

Player: "I don't have engineering," :shock:

GM: "Okay Scouts can get the engineering skill, so make an experience check, thats your Scout - 6 plus 2d6, 13 or more,"

Player: "I rolled... an 8 plus my Scout -6 is 14"

GM: "okay from your experience you have seen something along these lines before, while not the same it looks close enough to make a difference , you can try for an engineering roll at a 1 point penalty instead of the normal minus 3"

Player: "Better than nothing",

 

[Oaty_bars]

If this doesn't make sense ...

Oh, it does make sense, it just would not do so within the framework of
my specific setting.

But you mentioned it being connected with the Skill (its not, its replacing the Skill) and book keeping (no book keeping each use is unique to that situation, so you reroll each time, anything else would be too powerful)

So I wasn't sure if you got this?

 

[rust]

So I wasn't sure if you got this?

Sorry, I should have explained it, but I was in a hurry ...

We use the Mongoose Traveller character generation system to create
the characters, because we like the lifepath concept, but then we con-
vert these characters to a BRP-based percentile system, because we
prefer that as the actual roleplaying mechanic.

So, when a character gets JOT during creation, we allow the player to
take any one other skill that fits the character concept instead.

Your idea, while perfectly reasonable, would become a bit difficult for
our setting because we would have to transfer it to our percentile sys-
tem - and this is what I meant with additional bookkeeping.

Again, I am sorry that my post was misleading, I should have taken the
time to clarify it.

 

[Oaty_bars]

So I wasn't sure if you got this?

Sorry, I should have explained it, but I was in a hurry ...

We use the Mongoose Traveller character generation system to create
the characters, because we like the lifepath concept, but then we con-
vert these characters to a BRP-based percentile system, because we
prefer that as the actual roleplaying mechanic.

So, when a character gets JOT during creation, we allow the player to
take any one other skill that fits the character concept instead.

Your idea, while perfectly reasonable, would become a bit difficult for
our setting because we would have to transfer it to our percentile sys-
tem - and this is what I meant with additional bookkeeping.

Again, I am sorry that my post was misleading, I should have taken the
time to clarify it.

Yeah BRP is good, it could be converted, but BRP doesn't have a bell curve which makes it a pain to convert,


Term/ Exp Chance
1= 1%
2= 4%
3= 9%
4= 16%
5= 25%
6= 36%
7= 49%
8= 64%
9= 81%
10= 100%

or maybe

1= 8%
2= 16%
3= 24%
4= 32%
5= 40%
6= 48%
7= 56%
8= 64%
9= 72%
10= 80%

if you are successful in rolling under, the number you rolled is your skill for that attempt,

(Best I can do at short notice :wink: )

 

[rust]

Thank you very much.

I will propose this to the players, and if they agree we will test it.

 

[Oaty_bars]

No probs, :wink:

 

[Oaty_bars]

Thank you very much.

I will propose this to the players, and if they agree we will test it.

Given this more thought, and I don't think trying to sim the same sort of probability curve as Traveller is the best way to go for BRP

So instead try either

Career Term x 5%

or

Career Term x1d10%

Both of these options stay intuitive to the Basic system, and seem more fitting :wink:

 

[rust]

Thank you again, we will give it a try next weekend.

 

[alex_greene]

Actually, and here I don my Devil's Advocate horned cap if I may, J-o-T skill may have a wide ranging remit, but the best anyone can hope to accomplish with the maximum of 3 J-o-T is a zero untrained penalty.

The character might be capable of handling herself in a situation for which she has no rated skill, but the most she can hope for is a show of competence: the equivalent of Level-0 in that skill.

A character trained in that skill, with the same characteristic as the J-o-T character, can still run rings around her in that trained skill alone. Unlike the J-o-T character, the trained character will have picked up in-depth experience in that topic that Miss J-o-T can never learn.

Also, J-o-T can never come up with a new solution to any problem; J-o-T can only come up with a solution based on the character's extensive, yet admittedly shallow, knowledge. You still could not trust someone, even with J-o-T 3, to perform surgery if she has no Medic skill: some tasks will require trained personnel rated in the use of a given machine or skilled in a given procedure.

Remember; the second part of the saying "Jack of all Trades" is " ... and Master of none."

Long term, J-o-T is good for on-the-fly, off the cuff solutions to problems, but it takes skill and training to make those solutions work in the long term.

 

[rust]

Also, J-o-T can never come up with a new solution to any problem; J-o-T can only come up with a solution based on the character's extensive, yet admittedly shallow, knowledge. You still could not trust someone, even with J-o-T 3, to perform surgery if she has no Medic skill: some tasks will require trained personnel rated in the use of a given machine or skilled in a given procedure.

This is why I currently still prefer BRP's Idea roll (based on Intelligence)
and Know roll (based on Education) to Traveller's JoT skill, I think that
the general attributes intelligence and education are a better foundation
for the ability to improvise a solution or remember some useful informa-
tion then a skill some characters have and others not.

 

[alex_greene]

And what of other characteristics? Social, Dexterity etc?

 

[rust]

And what of other characteristics? Social, Dexterity etc?

BRP uses Strength for the Effort roll, Constitution for the Stamina roll and
Dexterity for the Agility roll, all rolls that are used similar to the Idea and
Know rolls in situations where either no skill exists or a character does
not have that skill.

Instead of BRP's usual Appearance attribute (which is used for a Charis-
ma roll) we use a Social attribute, borrowed from Traveller, that is used
for an Influence roll.

 

[Oaty_bars]

Actually, and here I don my Devil's Advocate horned cap if I may, J-o-T skill may have a wide ranging remit, but the best anyone can hope to accomplish with the maximum of 3 J-o-T is a zero untrained penalty.

The character might be capable of handling herself in a situation for which she has no rated skill, but the most she can hope for is a show of competence: the equivalent of Level-0 in that skill.

Are you talking about the BRP version or the Traveller version here?

If its Traveller, reread what I've written, you can not get higher than zero/0,

But if you are talking about the BRP version,
its a percentage based system, so zero would not work here,
it needs to be in the positive to work, hence the different system...

A character trained in that skill, with the same characteristic as the J-o-T character, can still run rings around her in that trained skill alone. Unlike the J-o-T character, the trained character will have picked up in-depth experience in that topic that Miss J-o-T can never learn.

Its not a skill at all, its the characters terms in thier career

Also, J-o-T can never come up with a new solution to any problem; J-o-T can only come up with a solution based on the character's extensive, yet admittedly shallow, knowledge.

What?, where did you get that idea, thats not true,
JoAT's can be applied to any lack of skill by the book,

You still could not trust someone, even with J-o-T 3, to perform surgery if she has no Medic skill: some tasks will require trained personnel rated in the use of a given machine or skilled in a given procedure.

This can not out do a skill above zero,
the best you can get with this is a limited zero rating

Remember; the second part of the saying "Jack of all Trades" is " ... and Master of none."

You can't be a master of any skill with this,

Long term, J-o-T is good for on-the-fly, off the cuff solutions to problems, but it takes skill and training to make those solutions work in the long term.

Never said it didn't, but What I did say is it is a powerful skill if you have high stats, too powerful, my idea gets is a much narrower replacement for the use of that skill

 

[alex_greene]

I was discussing the Mongoose rulebook skill here, and demonstrating its limitations with the aim of pointing out that as it stands, J-o-T is fine as it is.

And while, let's say, a character with J-o-T 3 and high Intelligence might figure out a way of, say, fixing an engine part that's broken with no formal training (think of Kaylee in Firefly, or Wash for that matter), good luck with trying to convince the Establishment that you have come up with a new form of best practice if you find that you have done something that nobody has ever done before.

Prosecution: "How does my learned colleague come to the conclusion that his client is not guilty, when he was clearly seen running around in the mall brandishing a Schmuckenhauer 7.62mm light assault cannon and screaming "Kill! Kill! Kill you all!" at the top of his lungs?

J-o-T: "I looked up the law on this one. He was not in his right frame of mind at the time."

Prosecution: "He was, indeed, not in his right frame of mind, because he had just scored some beetle snuff some twenty minutes before! Where, exactly, did you pass the Bar? Because I would like to question your tutor about your unique approach to law, and ask him whether he thought he was teaching you to bake cookies instead."

J-o-T: "Er, I actually never passed bar. But I'm really good at programming computers, and I could see how the legal system works very much like a decision flowchart, so I thought ..."

As I said. Off the cuff solutions. You want ready made, in depth knowledge, you have to go and talk to experts.

Trained experts.

 

[Dave Chase]

So, I guess using the old line of

'I read it in a book once.'

Wouldn't work with you

:lol:

Dave Chase