Italiani?

Wolfhound

Mongoose
Dove sei l'Italiani? Is there a playtest document for a basic Italiani force?

If not, how would yall stat these out? Both the Bersaglieri (regular army) version and the Alpini (elite troop) version.

(Choices listed below based on figure availability from Italeri, Airfix, etc. in 1/72 and Mirliton in 20mm)

Infantry Squad Asset Weapons
Carcano Mod.91
Beretta M1938A SMG
Breda M1930 LMG

Infantry Support Asset Weapons
Breda M1937 MMG
M35 47/32 47mm AT Gun
Brixia 45mm Light Assault Mortar (magazine fed mortar woohoo!)
Mod.40 Flamethrower

"Vehicle" Support Asset Choices
Ansaldo 90/53 AA/AT Gun
Lancia 3R0 truck with 90/53 AA/AT Gun
AS-42 Sahariana (aka "The desert jeep")
Lancia 3R0 Heavy Truck
Autoblinda AB 41 Armored Car

Armor Asset Choices
Carro Armato M13/40 Tank
Carro Armato P-40 Tank
Semovente M40 DA 75/18 Assault Gun

Air Asset Choice
Macchi MC-202 Folgore

:lol:
 
Agis said:
Italians are definately on my to do list!
But so far nothing from me... :oops:

If we came up with some stats and approximate points, could you "fine tune" them? That might save you some time and headache and be fun for us too eh? :lol:
 
Posting this here to keep it all together, and so that I don't have to try and find it again later.

Italian 1/72 Plastic Kits

Various
http://www.scalehobbyist.com/catagories/browse.php?pg=1&ppp=24&sb=stocknumber&so=a&era=6&ct=9&sc=72

Italian 1/72 Resin Kits

MIRLITON SG
http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=ww2-20mm-172-ww2-italians-20mm

MR. PANZER:
http://henk.fox3000.com/ricardi.htm

MARS:
http://www.mars.strefa.pl/ang/1-72/ita.htm
http://www.smallscaleafv.com/
http://italie1935-45.aceboard.fr/97185-1703-7005-0-Autocannone-Lancia-Mars.htm

ITALIAN KITS ARMOR
http://www.italiankits.com/italiankitsarmor.html
http://henk.fox3000.com/italkit.htm

DOC MODELS
http://www.docmodels.com/start_frame.asp?Flag=ENG

MODELLTRANS
http://henk.fox3000.com/Mt.htm

BRACH MODEL
http://henk.fox3000.com/brach.htm
http://www.modellismopiu.it/modules/news/article.php?storyid=740

AP MODELS
http://www.apmodels-centro1-72.com/
http://www.smallscaleafv.com/

M.G.M.
http://www.7thkompany.com/7thk1/default1.htm
http://henk.fox3000.com/mgm2.htm
 
Wolfhound said:
Agis said:
Italians are definately on my to do list!
But so far nothing from me... :oops:

If we came up with some stats and approximate points, could you "fine tune" them? That might save you some time and headache and be fun for us too eh? :lol:

Why not? :D
I really like the idea. It is only that I am very busy at the moment.
The German Vehicle Compendium is more or less done, we are just waiting for the Mongoose Logo License to get started.
Soviet book is written, reviewed and tested and some photos taken but layout has not started.
British and US books are written, reviewed and partly tested.

In addition I have to participate for the next 6 weeks in a job enrichment / enhancement program of my company. :(
So at the moment not much time is left...

But - what army list do you want to have covered?
What vehicles?
 
Here's my first attempt. Very few points down, most stats derived from various Brit, US, or Early War playtest German items. I tried to give them their own flavour (as best as possible within the scope of already created rules) and still try and stick to their unique qualities from the war.

I also "spun" the text where, because nobody wants to read about how bad their army sucks and sucky write-ups don't sell figs. :lol:

Bersaglieri (Italian Army Infantry)

During the Second World War the Italian high command had adopted the doctrine of "La Guerra di Rapido Corso," or "The War of Rapid Decision." All weapons procurement, vehicle design, and unit organizations were built around this concept of mobile warfare. Had the doctrine been adopted earlier, sufficient funds allocated by the Mussolini government, and time for sufficient training to trickle down to the common footsolder and platoon officer, it would have been a very different army that faced off against England and the United States in the deserts of North Africa.

(bla bla text here bla bla)

Platoon Structure
(bla bla text here bla bla)

0-1 Command Assets
2-4 Squad Assets
0-3 Support Assets
0-3 Armour Assets
0-2 Air Assets

Command Assets
The following are all the Command Assets available to a Bersaglieri platoon.

Bersaglieri Command Squad - ??? points
Fierce independence was a hallmark of Italian troops all throughout the war. Usually the only officer that any true control over the troops was the Platoon commander.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Sottotenente.....1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Vice Brigadiere..1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Team 1: Sottotenente (unit leader) with a M1938A SMG, Soldier with a M1930 LMG, 2 Soldiers with a Mod.91 rifles.

Team 2: Vice Brigadiere with a M1938A SMG, Soldier with a M1930 LMG, 2 Soldiers with a Mod.91 rifles.

Teams: The Vice Brigadiere may act as a unit leader to Fire Team 2, splitting off to act as a separate unit.

Options: A Bersaglieri Command Squad may have a Fiat 626 NML Medium Truck for +50 points. Either Team may drop the Soldier armed with the M1930 LMG and one of the Soldiers armed with a Mod.91 rifle for a AS-42 Sahariana for +?? points.

Supporting Artillery: This unit may purchase up to 3 uses of Supporting Artillery. Calling in Supporting Artillery requires a Ready action. This is used as an Artillery attack, but the initial Impact Point must be in the unit's Line of Sight. There is no minimum range for this attack (yes, you can call it down right on your own head!). Light Artillery costs +50 points per use, while Heavy Artillery costs +100 points per use.

Squad Assets
The following are all the Squad Assets available to an Italian Bersaglieri force.

Bersaglieri Squad - ??? points
Trained for mobility, the Bersaglieri were a very fluid fighting force.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Appuntato Scelto.1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Appuntato........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Team 1: Appuntato Scelto (unit leader) with a M1938A SMG, Soldier with a M1930 LMG, 2 Soldiers with a Mod.91 rifles.

Team 2: Appuntato with a M1938A SMG, Soldier with a M1930 LMG, 2 Soldiers with a Mod.91 rifles.

Teams: The Appuntato may act as a unit leader to Fire Team 2, splitting off to act as a separate unit.

Tank Assault: Infantry in this period used a variety of grenades or mines to assault armoured vehicles. All members of the unit are assumed to carry Anti-Tank Explosives. These may be placed on any model of Size 2 or greater with a Charge action if the target ends up within the Lethal Range of the charging unit. They will explode at the end of the charging unit's next turn.

Options: A Bersaglieri Squad may have a Fiat 626 NML Medium Truck for +50 points. Drop Team 2 for -?? points.

Support Assets
The following are all the Support Assets available to a Bersaglieri force.

Bersaglieri MMG Support Team - ?? points
Italian gunners coule deny areas of the battlefield with a hail of bullets.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Unit: Soldier (unit leader) with a M1937 MMG, Soldier with a Mod.91 rifle.
Bersaglieri AT Team - ?? points
The 47mm AT gun was used by the Bresaglieri to hunt down allied armor.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Appuntato Scelto.1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Unit: Appuntato Scelto (unit leader) with a M1938A SMG, Soldier with 47/32 47mm AT Gun, Soldier with a Mod.91 rifle.

Crew Weapon: The 47/32 47mm AT Gun can only shoot if at least one crew member is in base contact with it.

Cumbersome: A Ready action must be taken before the 47/32 47mm AT Gun may be moved. The Move score of all models in the unit depends on the number of models still manning the weapon.

3 crew = 4" maximum move,
2 crew = 3" maximum move and
1 crew = 1" maximum move.

If the crew choose to abandon the 47/32 47mm AT Gun, they may move normally.
Bersaglieri Assault Mortar Team - ?? points
The Brixia magazine fed light assault mortar was capable of a high rate of fire and was a lethal threat to allied infantry.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Appuntato Scelto.1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Unit: Appuntato Scelto (unit leader) with a 45mm Light Assault Mortar, Soldier with a Mod.91 rifle.

Options: A Bersaglieri Assault Mortar Team may have an AS-42 Sahariana for +?? points.
Bersaglieri Cecchino Team - ?? points
Cecchino (Snipers) were used to kill the enemy at range and cause confusion, they were usually selected from among the most crack troops in the unit.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Appuntato Scelto.1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6+1.....4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Unit: Appuntato Scelto (unit leader) with a Mod.91 rifle, Soldier with a Scoped Mod.91 rifle.

Stealthy: If a model from this unit is in Cover and did not make a Shoot action or reaction in the last turn, enemy models more than 20" away may not draw Line of Sight to it.

Ambush: This unit may be concealed in an area of terrain outside the enemy's deployment zone before the game begins. Note the location of the unit before any models are deployed on the table. You can reveal the ambush by placing the section on the table at any time after a unit (friendly or otherwise) has completed an action. However, the unit must be revealed by the end of turn three or be counted as destroyed.

Elite Training: The unit gains a +1 bonus to their Armor Saves when in Cover. They may also re-roll their Close Combat dice.

Fearless: The unit discards the first Suppression dice it suffers every turn.

Options: A Bersaglieri Cecchino Team may have an AS-42 Sahariana for +?? points. If it does, it may not use the Ambush rule.

Bersaglieri Armoury
Weapon......................Range.....Damage.......Traits
45mm Light Assault Mortar....48".......D6...........Artillery, Lethal Zone/1", Prone
47/32 47mm AT Gun............48".......D6+2.........Lethal Zone/1", Ready, Slow
Anti-Tank Explosives.........Placed....D10..........Lethal Zone/2", One-Shot, Piercing/2
Heavy Artillery..............Special...2xD6+1.......Artillery, Lethal Zone/4", One-Shot
Light Artillery..............Special...D6...........Artillery, Lethal Zone/4", One-Shot
M1930 LMG....................24".......2xD6.........Auto, Prone
M1937 MMG....................48".......2xD6.........Auto, Prone
M1938A SMG...................12".......3xD6.........-
Mod.91 Rifle.................24".......D6...........-
Scoped Mod.91 rifle..........36".......D6...........Accurate

45mm Light Assault Mortar: The Brixia assault mortar was able to fire as fast as the gunner could pull the firing lever and was reloaded via a magazine.

47/32 47mm AT Gun:

(bla bla text here bla bla)

Bersaglieri Vehicles and Air Assets

The following Assets may be used by any Italian Army force.

Support Assets
The following are all the Support Assets available to an Italian Army force.

3RO truck with 90/53 AA/AT Gun - ? points
In a successful attempt to make the massive 90/53 mobile, and to get real anti-tank ability into the hands of Italian field commanders, the 90/53 was mounted to the Lancia 3RO heavy truck. This created one of the most distinctive Support Assets of the Italian army.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Commander........1.....4".....D6..................4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6..................4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Heavy Truck......4.....6".....D10.................6+.....6+.....8+.....Hits/3, Lumbering, Wheels/12"

Unit: Commander (unit leader), Soldier with 90/53 AA/AT Dual Purpose Gun (FaF), 4 Soldiers.

Crew Weapon: The 90/53 AA/AT gun can only shoot if at least one crew member is in base contact with it.

Dual Purpose Weapon: Dual Purpose Guns fulfilled two roles, designed as a compromise between the heavy main armament of an anti-tank gun and dedicated anti-aircraft gun. Before the battle, the player fielding this unit must decide whether it will be used in the anti-tank or anti-aircraft roles. If used as an anti-aircraft gun, the 90/53 AA/AT gun gains the AA-Only trait. To change role during the battle, two consecutive Ready actions must be performed.

Stabilizers: The gun was sufficiently powerful that the trucks required heavy stabilizers to be deployed before firing. Before a battle the player fielding this unit must decide whether it will be mobile or stationary. If stationary, the weapon and truck gain the Immovable trait. To raise the stabilizers, two consecutive Ready actions must be performed.

Gun Shield: The Commander and Soldiers count as being in Medium Cover when shot at from the Forward facing.

Fearless: This unit can ignore the first Suppression dice it suffers every turn.

Transport: The 3RO truck with 90/53 AA/AT Gun can carry up to 6 Size points of models (each maximum Size 1).
626 NML Medium Truck - 50 points
The Fiat 626 was used extensively to carry around Italian war materials.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
626 NML..........4.....7".....D10.................6+.....6+.....7+.....Hits/3, Lumbering, Wheels/14"

Transport: The 626 NML Medium Truck can carry up to 10 Size points of models (each maximum Size 1).
90/53 AA/AT Dual Purpose Gun - ? points
The Ansaldo 90/53 was considered by many to be the "Italian 88" and was a hard hitting tank stopper.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Commander........1.....4".....D6.......4+.....6+.....6+.....-
Soldier..........1.....4".....D6.......4+.....6+.....6+.....-

Unit: Commander (unit leader), Soldier with 90/53 AA/AT Dual Purpose Gun (FaF), 4 Soldiers.

Crew Weapon: The 90/53 AA/AT gun can only shoot if at least one crew member is in base contact with it.

Immovable: The weapon itself has Immovable trait for the scope of the average game.

Dual Purpose Weapon: Dual Purpose Guns fulfilled two roles, designed as a compromise between the heavy main armament of an anti-tank gun and dedicated anti-aircraft gun. Before the battle, the player fielding this unit must decide whether it will be used in the anti-tank or anti-aircraft roles. If used as an anti-aircraft gun, the 90/53 AA/AT gun gains the AA-Only trait. To change role during the battle, two consecutive Ready actions must be performed.

Gun Shield: The Commander and Soldiers count as being in Medium Cover when shot at from the Forward facing.

Fearless: This unit can ignore the first Suppression dice it suffers every turn.
AB 41 Armored Car - ?? points
The AB 41 was originally intended to be used in urban police actions in the Italian colonies, but found itself well suited to the mobile battlefield.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
AB 41............2.....7".....2xD6.....Front......7+.....5+.....9+.....Hits/2, Lumbering, Multifire/2, Wheels/14"
.......................................Sides......6+.....6+.....8+.....-
.......................................Rear.......6+.....6+.....7+.....-

Unit: AB 41 with a 20mm Breda 35 Autocannon, a forward hull MG (FaF)
AS-42 Sahariana - ?? points
"The Desert Jeep" is another distinctive Italian vehicle of WW2. It was designed to excel in the desert, and it did. After the war was over, those lucky enough to have one usually kept it... everyone loves driving around in fast Italian cars after all.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
AS-42 Sahariana..2.....8".....2xD10...............6+.....6+.....7+.....Hits/2, Lumbering, Wheels/16"

Options: The AS-42 Sahariana comes with a Pintle MG for +0 points. It may swap the Pintle MG for a 20mm Breda 35 AA for +?? points or a 47/32 47mm AT Gun for +?? points. A Pintle MG may be added for +25 points.

Transport: The AS-42 Sahariana can carry up to 2 Size points of models (each maximum Size 1). A Sahariana's driver and gunner are already included in these stats. The Transport capabilities represent additional space.

Armour Assets
The following are all the Armour Assets available to an Italian force.

Carro Armato M13/40 Tank - ??? points
The M13/40 was often used as a "medium" tank against the allies because it was designated as such by the Italian military. Used correctly, they were murderously effective as an infantry support "light tank."

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
M13/40...........3.....4".....3xD10...Front.......7+.....5+.....9+.....Hits/2, Lumbering, Multifire/4, Tracks/8"
......................................Sides.......7+.....5+.....8+
......................................Rear........7+.....5+.....7+

Unit: M13/40 tank armed with 47/32 47mm AT Gun, 1 Co-Axial MG and 2 additional hull MGs (FaF)

Co-Axial MG: To improve target acquisition, MGs on vehicles were often mounted co-axial to the main gun. One MG has a co-axial mount. The co-axial MG must always use the same Fire Zone as the main gun. As soon as a Fire Zone is placed within range of the co-axial MG, you may add +1 to all Damage Dice of the main gun.

Options: A Pintle MG may be added for +25 points.
Semovente M40 DA 75/18 Assault Gun - ??? points
As the only "real" armour threat that the allied armour crews faced in any large numbers, the Semovente was the Italian equivalent of the German StuG III. Unfortunately, the Italian high command designated them "Division Artillery" at first instead of assault guns. However, savvy commanders in the deserts of North Africa saw their true worth and sent them out to hunt Shermans.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Facing.....Target.Save...Kill...Traits
Semovente 75/18..4.....3".....4xD10...Front.......9+.....4+.....11+....Hits/2, Lumbering, Tracks/8"
......................................Sides.......8+.....5+.....10+
......................................Rear........7+.....5+.....9+

Unit: Semovente 75/18 with 75mm Assault Gun (FaF)

Options: A Pintle MG may be added for +25 points.
Air Assets
The following are all the Air Assets available to an Italian force.
Macchi MC-202 Folgore CB - ??? points
A direct descendant of the MC-200, the Folgore (Lightning) was superior to the allied aircraft of the early war. It was the most widespread Italian fighter and arguably the best airframe the Regia Aeronautica ever fielded. The CB (Caccia Bombardiere) was the ground-attack configuration.

Type............Size..Move....CC......Target.Save...Kill...Traits
MC-202 Folgore...5....Loiter..4xD10....6+.....5+/5+..8+.....Hits/3, Multifire/4
......................Cruise

Unit: The MC-202 Folgore CB is armed with two 12.7mm Breda MGs (FaF), two 20mm Breda 35 Autocannon (FaF), and two 160 kg. bombs.

160 kg. Bombs: The Folgore CB carries 2 bombs. They are dropped weapons, as detailed on page 16. Up to two may be dropped with every Shoot (bomb) action.

Italian Vehicle Armoury
Weapon......................Range.....Damage.......Traits
12.7mm Breda MG..............20".......D6+1.........Auto, Piercing/1
160 kg. bomb.................Dropped...D6+2.........Lethal Zone/6", Multihit, One-Shot
20mm Breda 35 Autocannon.....24".......D6+2.........Piercing/1
20mm Breda 35 AA.............24".......D6+2.........AA, Piercing/1
47/32 47mm AT Gun............48".......D6+2.........Lethal Zone/1", Ready, Slow
75mm Assault Gun.............48".......D6+3.........Lethal Zone/2", Piercing/1, Slow
90/53 AA/AT Dual Purpose Gun.60".......D10+4........Lethal Zone/1", Multihit, Piercing/3, Slow
MG...........................24".......3xD6.........Auto
Pintle MG....................24".......3xD6.........AA, Auto
 
Just by a (very) quick glance I have the feelling that you do not need me!
:wink:

Write it, test it and publish your 1st Logo License book! :D
 
:lol: Thanks, but I don't have the "points formulas" to correctly stat out the troops. Would you ever have time to help with that or is there a secret formula someplace?

Kinda funny, it's been about 3 years since I sent anything off to be published. I was just doing this for fun, because I like Italians. :D
 
Wolfhound said:
:lol: Thanks, but I don't have the "points formulas" to correctly stat out the troops. Would you ever have time to help with that or is there a secret formula someplace?

Kinda funny, it's been about 3 years since I sent anything off to be published. I was just doing this for fun, because I like Italians. :D

There is no secret formula as said sometimes before. :cry:

Your task is however a lighter one as the initial armylists.
Take a similar unit, adjust your unit accordingly in points and test it.
Rewrite it, discuss it, and test it again. And again...

Rule of thumb: The more test games the better and more balanced the army list!
You get the idea... :wink: :wink:
 
As encouragement i'd love to see an italian list, regularly play against them in another well known ww2 system - what you have looks good so far, some points for your consideration:

Desert games play differently to regular ww2 games, lack of cover and wide open space being big factors which offers some scope for house rules. in the aforementioned other system, some open desert can be considered as roads to improve movement.

You might want to include rules for the hopelessly outdated L6 light tank which were widely used to support bersaglieri, also one company in four were mounted on motocycles (even the hmg's) which seems like too good a gaming opportunity to miss. Rapid advance and manouver were key elements of italian doctrine among the more elite formations (bersag/carri companies/pracadutisti) Also the artillery was legendary and well regarded by the brits (guessing u know this already tho).

some option to support larger formations with german equipment might also be appropriate (not to complicate matters too much).

best of luck - eagerly anticipating a pdf to playtest :)
 
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