Is stealth too powerful?

[MongooseMatt]

Guys, we have playtested this one to death

_Try_ playing against the Minbari in 2e before you break into a sweat. You will have to develop new tactics, whichever side of the table you are on. This is a Good Thing. . .

 

[Da Boss]

So What? How does this make it easier to see a ship that has the stealth trait than it did in the Armageddon version of the rules? Stealth numbers went up for the Minbari, you lost the Scanners to Full ability for the fighters, and you gain an ability that is questionable at best to beat the stealth by firing. The range breaks for stealth are the same. So that Tinashi at range 21 Starts at Stealth 5+, goes to 6+ because of range. Can be reduced to 5+ if you make your 50-50 roll with your scout. So the first ship that fires on it has a 33% chance of actually seeing the Minbari ship to give you a chance, assuming of course you hit with the weapons you fire at the Bonehead, to reduce the stealth to a 50-50 shot again. I fail to see how this makes it easer to see a Minbari ship then it was in Armageddon. Using that same Tinashi, 4+ stealth in armageddon, up to 5+ stealth due to range, down to 4+ with the scout. 50-50 chance to see with the first ship you fire at. A 17% better chance to actually shoot at the Tinashi. But then again, it's easier to break stealth in 2nd Edition. :roll:


Dave

Basically, as Scouts are more useful in general now they are more prevalent in all fleets; Fighters rarely got to perform Scanners to Full if the Minbari player was halfway competent; Thresholds have been adjusted too.

At the end of the day, we tested them out and although they are still fairly hit or miss (literally) due to the Stealth mechanic, they are just about balanced in 2nd ed.

The situation you describe is a Minbari player's optimal position - at long range. Therefore you attempt to deny them that advantage. It was rare that we ever saw a shot at over 20" in any of my playtest games due to closing quickly with the enemy and firing at the closest targets. Scouts often stay in cover as they are so essential to winning the game and the tactics tended to be fairly similar no matter who the Minbari were facing.

You never saw a minbari player move 1/2 his move and CBD or all stop to stay at long range?

How are scouts more useful now? You cant redirect beams. This is a huge deal. What was done with extending the range of scouts to 36" was to make them more survivable as people can't target them now. The redirect did go down to a CQ check of 8, but except for dealing with a ship that has stealth, I would never field one as a Minbari player as they cant make the majority of my weapons better. Sure it will help if I field a troligan or a tigara, but why would I when I am better at fighting at range with most of my ships? The Minbari are the current Beam Team. Why take a Leshath when I can have another Teshlan in my fleet? And that Teshlan is now more survivable as it now has stealth 5+ too!

Dave

Leshath is a very nasty ship against other ships with Stealth - in particular the Minbari - I figure we may see the ISA employing their services alot - so Mr Sharlin whats your Stealth - oh yes 1+ Firing now! It is of course Stealth 6 - nasty!

Good job the Vorlons get +1 vs Stealth cos they are going to need it! not having a Scout of their own.............

 

[MustEatBrains]

Guys, we have playtested this one to death

_Try_ playing against the Minbari in 2e before you break into a sweat. You will have to develop new tactics, whichever side of the table you are on. This is a Good Thing. . .

I think that makes me want to give them a try in the coming Vassal campaign... that or the pak´ma´ra. Or Drakh. Well, maybe something else. But I´ll put the Minbari on top of my list. For the moment. I think. :roll:

 

[Davesaint]

Guys, we have playtested this one to death

_Try_ playing against the Minbari in 2e before you break into a sweat. You will have to develop new tactics, whichever side of the table you are on. This is a Good Thing. . .

Matt,

I think you misunderstand my point. There are lots of people on the board that are saying that it is easier to see through stealth. I have played against the Minbari using 2nd Edition rules. I fail to see how it is easier to break the stealth with the 2nd edition rules when the Minbari stealth numbers went up.


Dave

 

[MustEatBrains]

Not all ships went up in stealth though, or did they?

 

[Ripple]

Old arguments...

As Dave has stated above, the comments are more in response to the claims made about stealth (and scouts) than about the 'brokeness' of the current stealth rules. Sometimes it feels like the job is to balance out the blatant enthusiasm of some posters with a dash of the ol' 'how exactly?' Maybe that is not appreciated, and we should be less critical, but it just feels like someone has to do it so folks don't buy in thinking their buying one thing when they are getting another.

Ripple

 

[Davesaint]

Not all ships went up in stealth though, or did they?

Ships that went up in stealth -
Leshath
Tigara
Teshlan
Tinashi
Ashinta
Shantavi
Torotha

The Troligan went down to 3+


Dave

 

[Triggy]

I'd say Stealth is about as easy to get through now with typical 2nd ed. fleet choices as it was in 1st ed. with typical fleet choices. The goalposts have moved but the end result is much the same in terms of game balance. The tactics have changed somewhat and that is the real difference.

 

[Burger]

I believe stealth is harder to get through in 2nd ed, but that is a good thing IMO. It was too easy for a veteran player in Armageddon, although new players found it too tough.

For completeness, ships that stayed the same or went down in stealth:
Sharlin
Sharoos
Sharkaan
Morshin
Veshatan
Neshatan
Neroon
Troligan

So just under 50% went up, although the ones that went up were the lower PL ones.

Still, stealth wins "least fun rule in the game" award.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Stealth is the least fun rule in the game? You think? My money for that goes to interceptors. Over powered, complicated and require record keeping or markers by the ships.

Not having read the new rules I understaood that stealth, if you thought about it and used the right tactics, could be countered relatively effectively, is that not the case?

The trouble with stealth is the all or nothing aspect, but how else do you convey it on the gaming table? Minbari ships are not well armoured and can't sustain mass damage and crew loss, which makes up for the lack of hits you inflict on them....in a way, yes i realise you still have to see them first.

So....

I hate to open this up, but I am at home sick and bored of gluing fleets together, what system would people like to replace the stealth mechanic with and why?

 

[Burger]

Yeah. The fun in the game, is rolling dice and blowing each other up.
Stealth involves rolling just one dice, and if you fail, you can't roll any more.
Therefore it is the most fun-destroying rule.
Interceptors and dodge can be frustrating for an opponent who can't seem to get a hit through... but at least they get to roll their attack dice!

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm its a good question - one idea is you could go with a variant on BFGs Holo/Shadowfields:

Ie for most weapons firing at Stealth ship within 8" use half AD, witin 20" use 1/4 AD, over 20" 1/8 AD (always minumum of 1AD?) this represents batteries etc of guns fiing into an area.

For Beams, Torpedos, Missiles roll D6 1 (1-2 inside 8") hit as normal, 2-6 missed. For Beams only roll for stealth against initial hits, once stealth has been penetrated roll normally.

Energy Mines ignore Stealth as usual

just an idea!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hmm its a good question - one idea is you could go with a variant on BFGs Holo/Shadowfields:

We looked at this and many, many others during playtesting, and all were found wanting for one reason or another. We stuck with the system we have as it a) reflected the show and b) could be completely negated/increased nastily by the actions and tactics of the players - which hits all the right buttons in terms of game play.

In short, if you run into constant problems with Stealth now, either you are doing something very wrong, or the Minbari player is doing something very right! Either way, it is the actions of players themselves that now have the biggest impact, not simple dice rolling (though there is no accounting for a string of ones!).

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm yeah strings of ones and twos are always annoying - especially as they are remembered ! Not being able to hit a Minbari fleet from anything in one game for three whole turns was not funny (even ships firing at mutiple targets)! Of course a later game seeing them on every roll was equally less funny for the Minbari player!

I think it is better just using the Shadow Dice - all sixes and it sings.

I was really responding to Right Hand with ideas more than anything ..........

have fun!

 

[Burger]

Either way, it is the actions of players themselves that now have the biggest impact, not simple dice rolling (though there is no accounting for a string of ones!).

Sorry I disagree. Because of the stealth mechanic, the winning or losing of the game will be decided on very few dice rolls. True you can influence the rolls by applying lots of modifiers, but still there is a very few dice rolls which will affect the outcome. Now the average of those rolls may well be perfectly balanced... but the standard deviation of those few rolls will be very large, compared to the standard deviation of your dice rolls when playing a non-stealth fleet.

I do agree that the current stealth rules reflect the show best. I do agree that the frustration felt by the players exemplifies the frustration of the ship's captains not being able to lock onto the Minbari, and draws the player in by relating to them. I do agree that the range of tactics that can be employed by both players to influence stealth rolls, is good and rewards tactical play. I do agree that it is a simple and quick way of dealing with what could potentially be a very complex system. But, it's just no fun to be denied your dice rolling and "blowing stuff up", which is what the game is all about, because you rolled a couple of duff dice.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

i reckon that stealth is fun/beatable on a small scale(just the odd dargan or vaarl), but its when entire fleets use it... no example needed, you can put all the thought and tactics in the world into play, then end up only seeing one of the mega-death ray firing ships (ow my xills is heard across the club on a regula basis)

 

[Ripple]

Hate to go against you Matt but Burger is closer to right than you are.

Two issues with stealth remain...one its only a few dice that determine all other action. This is big and Burger covered it.

Two is the idea that you can counter stealth effectively through actions. From what I can see two modifiers will be commonly usable by most fleets...getting a good roll to break stealth in the first place (and doing so in time for something important of yours to fire) and scouting. Range is going to be dicey more often than not as range eight is hard to maintain against fast ships that you closing with.

In other words two equally good players should cancel out on at least one of the common factors. The Minbari player deals with your scout, or destroys any ship that gets a lock on, or avoids range eight. Over time stealth stays just as good, where as the answers to it can rapidly disappear.

So I have to not only win a few die rolls, I have to win a few of the early die rolls.

There were good suggestions before... increased hull for unbroken stealth etc...that reflected the show fairly well. It's not like they could not tell a sharlin was out there...they just couldn't get a good weapons lock on it. A bit like being in a bi-plane fighting a plane with advanced air to air missiles, the problem isn't that you can see him, its that you weapons have become too stupid to see him and you have to guide them yourself. His on the other hand can kill you from over the horizon. If EA had not been able to see them at all, it would have been like the shadows appearing from nowhere with the crew not even able to get to battle stations before they die.

Ripple

 

[Locutus9956]

Yep I tend to agree. As much as stealth IS improved over its original format when all's said and done it STILL comes down to one dice roll when you open fire and that I still dislike.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

i think calling it the "worst rule" is a bit harsh, i often find the tension quite exiting, aslong as no-one says "anything but a one" theres no fed-up-y-ness or violence

 

[katadder]

thing is smoetimes stealth goes for you sometimes against. take the tourney i took minbari, over 4 games my opponents only failed 4 stealth rolls all day so I fired the techs for forgetting to turn it on

minbari ships are now generally more fragile. whilst alot of fleets gained firepower they gained fragileness and occasionally an increase in stealth.