Is RQ getting blander, edition by edition?

[zozotroll]

When it first came out RQ had lots of odd, unusual things about it. It went places other games didnt go. The temple of Uleria in Apple Lane. It wasnt jsut random women on street corners, but folks with names in a small village, where they were one of a small number of Buiseneses.

StormBallys would be locked up in any other society, but they are needed in Glorantha. ZZ is even worse, and yet tolerated.

Darktroll jokes, certainly not politicaly correct. Other bits here and there that where still being fleshed out. And dont forget the propsoed modual to a troll S&M bar. I have never seen any other game system propose that.

Then AH came along, and things toned down a bit. Darktroll jokes where gone. No S&M mod. But Stormbull was still a psycotic, Uleria had her interesting but not good on adventures type spells. Kargs sons still had to munch a relative a year, even if it was just a trollkin.

Now MRQ has toned down even more. Uleria has lost all of her unique spells. Stormbull lost the old write up. ZZ is associated with SB, but has no associates himself.

Perhaps I am missing something, or maybe in future products some of these things will be restored. But so many things that always made glorantha diferent, fun and to seem more real are slowly slipping away.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Mongoose policy includes, well, not including potentially disturbing content in the basic game. Uleria's uniqueness, Broo reproduction and other niceties have been cut off. In order to be able to put that small "suitable for all ages" mark, I suppose. I will not argue with their policy. You have plenty of old materials, plus HeroQuest, to take your more adult ideas for your game.

In my supplement I threw in real world religion (sensitive subject!), sex, prostitution, rape, and the Incubus/Succubus, that had been left out of the bestiary due to its connection to sexual perversion and sex crimes, I suppose. I placed a "Suitable for mature audience" warning on the book, too.

So do not buy it for your kids unless you want them to ask you: "Dad, what does it mean that the young girl is worth more on the slave market if she arrives 'intact'?".


So I think it is up to third party publishers to bring in more "mature" contents. What is sad is that third party publishers cannot write about Glorantha, at least not without lengthy negotiations with Greg, I suppose.

 

[Utgardloki]

I first played Runequest when I was a teenager, and I think the Runequest GM had a little bit TOO much interest in the "Adult" aspects of Glorantha. If I were to buy, write, or run a setting that focussed on things like rape, perversion, and sexual slavery, I'd first want to ask myself some hard questions about why I want to do that.

That does not mean leaving adult matter out of the setting. I was working on an adventure set in the far northern region of a homebrew world once, and realized that inbreeding could be a problem for the isolated human communities up there. Therefore I concluded that the 16 year old female paladin whose patron deity was Frigga would probably make herself available to male visitors, hoping to increase the genetic diversity of the tribe. Farther south, such a thing would be considered shocking. How could anybody, especially someone who considers herself a champion of Frigga, act in that way?

This kind of thinking led to consideration of how Frigga is seen very differently in the north and the south, and how the two populations with the same deities come to stereotype each other.

One guiding principle I have is how I would get a female player to play in this game. A setting where women are raped if captured by nomadic tribesmen would probably turn off female players. But perhaps the tribesmen have strong superstitions regarding women, especially if the goddesses are real and sometimes can make a man pay for his crimes.

Maybe for a role playing game I whitewash things a little bit where I would not do so if I were writing a fantasy novel. Even something like having an attractive young female for sale in a slave market, while realistic, could bring about moral dilemmas that could derail the adventure or the campaign or drive players away (especially the female players).

Things have changed since the 1980s, and on the balance I think the changes are good. For one thing, there are about 10 times more female players than there were when Ronald Reagan was President. If the players in your group are happy with S&M themes, then that's fine. But if something is likely to offend a player in my group, I will be very hesitant to include that aspect in my game.

There are lots of ways to make a setting interesting without reference to sex.

 

[Halfbat]

I'm not sure that Mongoose's policy can really be criticised in today's climate. And that policy extends to OGL publishers, too, don't forget. They are, after all, trying to make sure that tabletop RPGing is a long-time, viable and profitable industry in which they can publish. I suspect that they are reflecting the current culture - anything that provokes or that could be classed as obnoxious is not acceptable any more in the way it might have been tolerated as "a viewpoint" in the (perhaps in some ways) more liberal 70's/early 80's.

Many of us are aware of the slating that D&D took a few years back, led by people who did not understand it. It tarnished the industry, despite having no flame at the bottom of the bonfire. I still have to talk to people about the whole RPG world, primarily saying to parents something along the lines of "Really find out about it and manage what you're uncomfortable with. Think of your approach to the internet."* Major publishers have to think "responsibly", now to try and avoid that.**

For example, I've looked at doing a broo supplement, but the slant it would put on broo to be acceptable might make it a publication that would be rejected by long-term RQ players.

::shrugs::

In other words, you may be right. But can it be avoided? Especially giving Utgardloki's very valid points above.

---------------
* OK, not exactly like that, but you get the drift. :wink:
**And even that doesn't work - I've seen some posts where the 3.5 Monster Manual was slated for having excessive amounts of "unacceptable images". (Excuse the circumlocutious description! :roll: )

Edit: Get the reference right!

 

[TRose]

I have to agree with Mongoose blander version of Runequest. For one thing 2 of the people I game with are my 2 daughters, ages 12 and 14. And I know I'm not the only old timer who games with his kids as I know several of the people I started with game with theirs. Now if you are a bunch of single guys the aspect of Broo, Uleria ect might be OK, but if your wife or daughters are playing do you really want to bring up the worst aspect of such bad guys? If you are a gm and your wife is captured by Broo would you really go into detail of how Broo treat captives? Only if you wanted to sleep on the couch. Think most guys would fudge the dice to avoid wrath of wife myself.

 

[soltakss]

Sure, Glorantha has its fair share of unwholesome imagery, but nowhere near as unwholesome as Real World mythology/history, believe me!

We always used Broos as the ultimate threat - be captured and nasty things would happen to you - it made PCs fight even harder to avoid capture.

Ulerians very rarely figured in our games as we had better things to spend our money on. But they were there in the background or occasionally as rewards for adventurers.

Vadeli never featured as we never really went on the Seas and never adventured in the West.

Ogres didn't play a big part, as most of the PCs in games I played in or GMed didn't really have sex high on their priorities. One notable exception was Zhara "Bury me in a Truth Rune Coffin", a Vingan adventuress/Devotee, sometime chieftain of the Blue Storm Dancers and traditionally a sucker for a handsome ogre. But it spawned a number of adventures as we went looking for her Ogre son and Ogre husband.

There were some occasions where PCs took out their lusts on captured Lunar priestesses, Unicorn Riders or on disposable slavegirls, but they were honestly few and far between. The exception was Shergar Sunhoof, a Yelmalian Centaur with a geas "Celibacy during Fireseason" and an awful lot of catching up on afterwards, with no distinction between sex, species or willingness.

Attempts to foster gaming that was closer to real life generally failed or succeeded in such a bland manner as to make them effective worthless. So, a number of PCs got married, one to a bought slavegirl, several to Chalana Arroy Priestesses but none through love. Marriage was seen as almost a business transaction. One player steadfastly refused attempts to get his PC married off as "you lot will only use her against me later on", but his PC was the one who murdered his parents so they couldn't be taken prisoner and used against him.

So, although all these things were there in the background, in gameplay they were almost non-existent.

In my opinion, various Digests focus on these far too often because it is fun, funny and makes the world interesting. Sure, broos were given foul habits in RQ2/3 but those habits filled perhaps a single paragraph. Uleria had a full writeup, but was very dry and clinical. Ogres were given a parapgraph of being handsome, seductive and fathering ogre children on unsuspecting women. Vadeli were given a paragraph of vileness, which was expanded on to ludicrous depths in the Gloranthan Digest. Even the supposed nature of Yelmalian Sun Domers never really saw the light of day, Shergar being the exception again.

So, yes, Mongoose RQ is blander than the other versions. But a lot of the background exists on the Web and that's where people will look for more information. So, if you want to read about what broos really get up to after lights out, you can easily find out. Hopefully, it will be the easy way rather than the hard way.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Hehehee!

Thanks for the support, Simon! Straight to the point as always.

Something tells me that not everybody read the comment in small font in my post above

Just FYI, I have roleplayed with my (former) wife, and with her 14-year-old daughter. MY daughter is still 7, but the time will come.

These adult themes are not necessary in a RPG. Mongoose cautiously left them out, a fact that I cannot blame.

However, leaving out even the possibility of such things happening totally destroys suspension of disbelief. As for other subjects, it is up to the GM to make things both realistic and entertaining. I have played a whole Viking campaign in which we raided almost all of the Northern coast of France looking for "various" forms of loot, and each time the GM told us "It appears they have hidden all the females beforehand". Ok, GM decision, but it looks definitely realistic and we had no problem accepting it. And I have once played a female character that was raped after the first twenty minutes of play: "Sure, your STR is 18/75, but he is 18/00 so you have no hope to resist. Hey, what's wrong? I had supposed this would give you some extra motivation to hunt down the Bad Guy of the adventure!" Phooey! If someone has enough RPG experience to figure out what system we were playing :roll: then he can understand why I had one more reason to have some doubts about its ability to educate GMs.

Also note that my book risks becoming politically incorrect every other page, and I submitted it to Mongoose before publishing it, just in case (it is not a requirement, just caution on my part). No complaints yet.

It is just a matter of having a good GM. Seek the best ones, and stick to them!

And if I notice a sudden increase in sales of Stupor Mundi next week I'll know that you are all a bunch of old swines

 

[zozotroll]

One of the better long term roleplaying I ever saw was between 2 players married to each other. One played a Humakti, the other an Ulerian. It lead to a huge amount of roleplay, and much gameing originality.

Yes, I can add it back in. Much as sever spirit goes back in for Humakt as soon as I figure out how to fit it in this system. But I am not really concerned about me as such.

I have only ever had one person, a woman, play an Ulerian. But, it might happen again. Only, if they only know of MRQ, there will be almost no reason to play an Ulerian at all. It is so bland now, they might as well have not wasted the page space.

There are plenty of violence only RPGs out there. RQ was always different. I have moderate hopes that MRQ will be different and still an interesting setting. But if I need to redo everything to make it Glorantha again, why bother? Why buy MRQ when I have to convert most of it to RQ2 or 3?

I skipped heroquest, as it was to much epic, not enough real people. Now it feels that MRQ is going the same route. I for one am sad that it will only be written foir 14 YOs.

 

[homerjsinnott]

1/ why are people happy with large amounts of violence yet squirm at the mention of sex?
I know which one I would rather have people indulge in. It seems that some cultures would rather that you carried a gun than a condom.


2/ People seem to have forgotten that broos can mate with males and that 50% of Ulerians aren't female.

3/ Mature themes for mature people, but sex is a huge part of any world real or fantasy, why do some feel the need to write it out?

 

[zozotroll]

I have played RQ3 with my daughter for years now. When we play with others her age, I just edit things like broos back to what is OK for them.

My wife has never played an Ulerian, ZZ is more her usual style. But in cyberpunk, she has played some pretty borderline fixers, and will in the next month or two get a portraite of her favorite charecter tatooed on her chest. Complete with bunny costume.

So not all fem,ale gamers are turned off by mention of sex. Some of them have even heard of the concept outside of the game before.

Its not like gamers cant come up with lots of objectionable stuff all by themselves. I wont GM anything that drifts towards fantasy porn. Fade to black works just fine, but I like the skeleton there to get an idea of why a night with an Ulerian would be different from a night with anybody else.

 

[zozotroll]

I get that many americans are major pruds. What surprised me was that a UK company would go the same way. From my online Brit friends I would have thought they would go the other way.

But then the one I talk to the most is a retired Para, so perhaps I am getting a twisted view.

 

[Utgardloki]

I don't know if it is prudishness that leads game publishers to hold back. In general, I am not really interested in hearing my friends sexual fantasies, and scenarios involving condoms and sexual lubricants are not likely to lead to an enjoyable game experience.

OTOH, the PCs might find items in a treasure hoard that have a sexual application, such as ointment of sexual vigor, etc. But I would not want to center a game around The Dildo Of Doom.

The problem is the topic of sex in RPGs is most likely to come up in a violent context, such as "Your character is captured by orcs and..." This could offend another player's sensibilities. In a sense, the GM is considered to be responsible for what happens in a game, so if something like that happens, a player could take it personally.

On the other hand, "Your character successfully seduces the barmaid and takes her to your room..." is not as likely to be a problem. Just don't go on about what happens when the door is closed.

There is also the question of balance. Okay, maybe some barmaids are willing to accompany your PC to his room, but are all barmaids nothing more than targets of seduction rolls? I don't think so.

On the other hand, thinking about sex provides another dimension which can be added to the game, potentially leading to the kind of misunderstanding which leads to the PC learning that barmaids in The Barbarian Guild are all proficient in the handaxe. Or perhaps the barmaid's father just wants to talk to the PC about child support.

It would be nice to see a good treatment of sexuality in a role playing game, but the Americans especially are paranoid about any suggestion that teenagers learn anything about sex.

 

[zozotroll]

A degree of balance would be nice. But, it is more a matter of surpresion. I also do not need long detailed discriptions, but thought the old RQ writeups where not that racy.

But, I was not just talking about sex or its lack in RQ. There are other things as well. I mewntioned the Kargs sons. And that Stormbull was probably a bunch of criminals that deserve to be hanged, but they are needed in a very violent world. These have also been cut back, yet everybody homed in on the sex bits.

So, other than sex, does anybody else miss things from earlier editions that added flavor to the mix?

 

[zozotroll]

Rosen I didnt read your small print because it was to small for my middleaged eyes. Finaly found my magnifier and got it done.

As for barmaids being the target of advances, talk to RW barmaids and see how many of them get hit on regularly. And Bardudes as well.

And again, it is the details like that, that happen in the RW that make a setting moe believeable. People get hungery, and smell bad after a week on the road. They sometimes get mean and stupid when they drink to much, and start fights.

And sometimes men and women are atracted to each other for reasons other than to compare knitting stitches.

I totaly agree that each GM must adjust for his game, and that all groups for the same GM are not the same. But that goes two ways, and RQ has steadily been onluy going one.

 

[soltakss]

But, I was not just talking about sex or its lack in RQ. There are other things as well. I mewntioned the Kargs sons. And that Stormbull was probably a bunch of criminals that deserve to be hanged, but they are needed in a very violent world. These have also been cut back, yet everybody homed in on the sex bits.

It's probably a matter of space and what can be fitted in reasonably.

As an example, RQ2 had the cults of Orlanth and Kyger Litor in the rulebook. Then Trollpack came out and expanded on the cult of Kyger Litor a lot. But, Orlanth was never really touched, except for a few ideas in Wyrms Footnotes. RQ3 gave a sketch version of Orlanth and Kyger Litor in Gods of Glorantha that paired them down to the bone. Then River of Cradles came out and gave an updated version of Orlanth. Troll Gods had a better version of Kyger Litor.

Now, Mongoose produce a game with effectively the equivalent of Gods of Glorantha in Cults of Glorantha I and II. It has to squeeze a lot in and has missed a lot out. I would guess that they wil bring out the other main cults in long form when there are scenarios/camapigns for them.

In the meantime, they are concentrating on the Big Two - Jrustela and the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Both of those are new and need a lot of cults etc to flesh them out.

Is there really much point in producing yet another long form of all the Orlanth cults and all the troll cults? Mongoose and Issaries would probably say no because that material is already out there in some form. New players would probably say yes because that material is out of print or for other games and they need the information for RQM.

So, other than sex, does anybody else miss things from earlier editions that added flavor to the mix?

Not really, mainly because I use the material from the earlier games and only use RQM material where it is new or better.

 

[Puck]

So, other than sex, does anybody else miss things from earlier editions that added flavor to the mix?

I too have a feeling that the whole cultural thing is a little lacking and probably least in sex and violence( those can be determined by the Gm and players). The campaign packs in the early days i.e. Pavis, Borderlands, Big Rubble, Griffin Mountain and Trollpack were intensely focused on small areas with detailed descriptions of culture: including specialty cults, eating habits, politics, important and not so important individuals and random encounters. I loved the little essays on the chart stealing capers in the Big Rubble or was it Pavis?

I cannot say enough about how the encounters and mini-adventures added to the whole of the Praxian-Pavic experience. It was the encounters and the Npc characters themselves that leaked the cultural, breadth and depth. Even though some of these Npc’s were killed right off and could have been just a simple line of stats, their backgrounds were fun to read and gave game master a feel for the depth of the world and a model for their own Npc’s. The 2cond age books I have bought so far (Glorantha, cults 1+2, and Gods of Glorantha) have their own strengths but are far larger in scope and do not have the finicky details and tangents let alone the specific characters and encounters that the original stuff did.

The other thing that was incredibly important was the Rurik saga and the tales of Biturian Varosh (cannot remember the spelling) and to a lesser extent the Paulis thing in Cof T. Boy did those stories sure give a feel to the world that was Glorantha! Tales of BV should have won a Pulitzer.
A couple of really good short stories concerning 2cond age could bring the new stuff a long way.

 

[ned_plants]

It is perhaps worth mentioning that most of the more mature material mentioned was not published until the early to mid eighties -- some years afterthe initial publication of Runequest itself. MRQ has only been around a couple of years and much of the material published has been of broad scope. Give them time.

Besides, I've always beeen of the opinion that the Third age was amuch cruder time than the Second anyway.

 

[soltakss]

Also, don't forget that in the 1980s, RQ stood head and shoulders above the competition because it had detailed and interesting supplements. There was no comparison with the rest of the stuff out there.

Moving on 20 years and the rest of the market has caught up, so RQ no longer stands out. Even if the new RQ material was as good as or better than the old RQ classics, they wouldn't necessarily appear as good because the competition is that much better nowadays.

So, in this respect, it was better in the past.

 

[Puck]

MRQ has only been around a couple of years and much of the material published has been of broad scope. Give them time

I agree totally. I really didn't mean for the previous post to sound like a moaning session. It is just that Mongoose has given us the broad and wide picture of Glorantha's second age(at least with the suppliments I have read) rather than the zoomed in focus that allows for the more cultural tidbits.
One of the things that made old Runequest stand out from the crowd was the intense focus on Prax, Pavis, River of Cradles. On the other hand I never really felt like I knew much about the rest of Glorantha( I even felt like I really did not have much of a grasp on Startar), where now for the second age there is a vast array of gods and lands.

I am certainly looking forward to what Mongoose comes up with when they turn their guns on the more focused material.

 

[atgxtg]

Hey, this might be surprising coming from me, but let'S not put the blmae entirely on Mongoose.

To answer the question, yes, RQ has become blander with each edition. But there are several reasons.

First off, RQ was a very original concept for an RPG when it was first released. A skill based RPG, based on a fantasy setting other than Middle Earth. Now adays, skill baed RPGs, and RPGs based on particular settings are common.

Secondly, as RQ became more generic after RQ2, eventually turning into BRP and a host of other deriatives, it became more generic and lalso more bland. Compare RQ3 with RQ2. THe book is a lot less colorful without the Gloranthan references.

MRQ by attemtping to turn RQ into a "generic RPG system" just continues that trend. Stillm, they should have tailored the rules more to fit the specific settings that they did. I expect campaigns in Glorantha, Lhankmar, and the Young Kingsdoms to play/feel appropriate for the setting, not the same.

As for the PG rating. Well, there are lots of other settings other than Glorantha. Of course, since those settings are based on works of fiction wheere the characters actually had sex, I'm not sure Glorantha is anything than needs to be censored. As for historcial gaming, as Simon has already pointed out, there was a lot more sex. Heck, people used to "do it" in the same room where the childrend and animals were. That was back before we developed hang ups about it.


Personally, I don't mind them omitting things, but I hate seeing things watered down. I would be fine with the Uleria cult getting mentioned but without a cult write up. As for Broos, a rough explanation that they will "rape/impregnate" anything is good enough. If someone gets captured the game session doesn't have to degenerate into a S&M novel with graphic details. Just go with "something bad happened off screen".

IF someone really has a problem with Broo, then they shouldn't use them if an adventure. There are plenty of other nasties available.

There are a lot of things in the game that people in the real world could be upset or offended by, racism, demons, violence, different religons. I woundn't want to see all those taken out oof the game (take away every controversial topic and we have nothing left).


As far as the "well Chaosium didn't do this stuff until a few years after RQ came out, so give Mongoose time." argument goes, I don't think it is applicable. Back in the early days, Chaosium wasn't putting out that much stuff. Not much came out from 78 and 79. Even at its peak, Chaosium never put out the volume of material that Mongoose does. So I don't think its a time thing, but a choice.


What I do have a problem with is the toning down of the combat and magic to make the game play, well, more like D&D than RQ. I also don't like the "generic" cult write ups. That's a beef that goes back to RQ3, though. But is is a major source of "blandness". Back in RQ2 each cult was unique. Once the "short form" cult write ups, and the gerenic (function) god stuff go going, we lost that uniqueness. Just like how the Gloranthja runes went from being unique to the Glorantha setting to generic runes for the core book.