Interstellar law in non-aligned space

[ochd]

Hi all,

More newbie questions arise, as I prep for the forthcoming session ...

When it comes to areas of chartered space outside the Imperium or other empires, confederations and so on (like District 268 or much of the Trojan Reach), how are things like red-zone interdicts enforced? Starports are said to be Imperial territory, but what about starports in non-aligned systems? If a starship is found floating in outer space somewhere in the Sindal subsector, with all people on board dead, then who arbitrates on salvage rights, takes responsibility for investigating it, etc.?

Once again, thanks in advance for the help.

Dan.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Depends on where you take it. Each system would have its own laws.
Theev might get you whatever crime syndicate you run into, while Palindrome probably has something closer to the Imperium, except for being mostly for the benefit of the local oligarchs. Meanwhile, Noricum has a TL of 1, so they have anything between no way to handle it to know what it is.

Mind that Im going off Third Imperium Magazine for Sindal data, as no-one will tell me if Mongoise used any of that.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are likely to be under some jurisdiction.

Independent worlds likely claims the local system. In international space you are under the jurisdiction of the system your ship is registered in.

Enforcement is likely weak...

 

[phavoc]

If you consider this like a frontier, a planets ability to enforce it's rules is where you draw boundaries. If a planet has no capabilities then it really has no law that MUST be observed. If it's ability to project power and enforce it's laws is limited to its orbit only, then it has no in system power, even.if it claims an entire system.

Claiming an entire system isn't normal under Imperial law, so I would suspect in adjoining systems that rule of thumb is followed- so long as the planets aren't able to change that.

A planet that possess no naval ability might purchase the services of privateers or mercenaries to enforce it's desire on other planets and moons. Perfect for adventuring opportunities.

In regards to your salvage question, I would assume most planets would not get involved unless somehow they were directly affected. Admiralty law works only where it's enforced.

 

[PsiTraveller]

In some cases it may well depend on what you want to have happen, and what rationalization you give it.

For example he Blue system is important to Imperial interests so they do a lot of flag waving and patrols through the system. The government is weak, but has a nice cushy handshake relationship with the Imperial forces.

You could say that Blue might want the Imperium to step in and use their anti pirate forces to enforce local codes, that is one way to go. On the other hand you could have the government (such as it is) declare that the Imperium is welcome to visit but not encroach, impugn or sully the territory of Blue in any way and to not try and enforce Imperial policy within Blue space. Either answer might work for your campaign.

Starports are generally neutral territory and in the TR and Sindal area may be run by GeDeCo. They may or may not turn a blind eye to anything odd going on, depending on if they get a cut, and what you want the situation to be.

 

[Condottiere]

You could have a more powerful neighbouring polity make occasional sweeps looking for pirates, something most navies tend to be rather enthusiastic about.

But if you want to exert control in your own system, you have to build up a patrol force powerful enough to dissuade wrongdoers from wandering around in your backyard.

Generally speaking, law enforcement tends to be more eagerly pursued to justify taxation.

 

[phavoc]

The Honor Harrington series has been brought up a few times in other conversations, and it has an example of this in the books. Manticore and the Anderman Empire are both relatively small compared to the Silesian Confederacy. Except the Confederacy exists in name only. Individual systems are basically left to fend for themselves as the Confederacy Navy is worthless (not to mention too small to cover all the necessary space). Manticore and Anderman Empire have a lot of merchant traffic in the Confederacy, so they actively perform pirate patrols in their space. The Confederacy can't stop them, and since they need their hulls they allow it to happen.

I'm sure the Imperium would do the same for nearby non-aligned systems that have merchant or other Imperial interests in them.

 

[Saladman]

When it comes to areas of chartered space outside the Imperium or other empires, confederations and so on (like District 268 or much of the Trojan Reach), how are things like red-zone interdicts enforced?

Ships on station from whoever red-zoned it. If that's sensitive politically then gunships not capital ships, but something on station.

Starports are said to be Imperial territory, but what about starports in non-aligned systems?

Case by case, but most often a Starport Authority similar to our Port and Airport Authorities. Probably chartered to the local world government. I imagine most ports close to an Imperium border running with the same rights and privileges for ships and travellers as actual Imperium starports just to avoid attracting any gunboat diplomacy.

If a starship is found floating in outer space somewhere in the Sindal subsector, with all people on board dead, then who arbitrates on salvage rights, takes responsibility for investigating it, etc.?

Now this is interesting. I have an answer that satisfies myself, but I'm not aware that it's canon.

If there's one strong Imperium on your map I assume it's Admiralty courts do in fact arbitrate certain cases from outside the normal civil borders of the Imperium law; such is the nature of Admiralty courts. And they do have motivation, if only to confirm salvage as legitimate and not a cover for piracy.

If there's no clear single power on the map things can get more complicated, because the salvagers themselves may prefer some friendly system government. But assume the government the ship was registered with requires you file for salvage with them to release the title. If you only want to gut the ship for scrap, or if you think you have a safe and sympathetic harbor for the whole ship, you can try to skip the paperwork. Odds are good no one's going to come along on patrol in deep space and ask you what the hell. But if you want the whole ship working, or even major systems such as power plant, drives, computer and so on, you're going to want to clear things up with the system of registry or else get flagged any place that wants good relations with the system of registry. So you may as well file with them and clear things up, or you risk getting needlessly tagged as suspected pirates.

In passing, take a look at marine salvage and admiralty courts on wikipedia. As I understand how we do things today, a wrecked ship and it's cargo don't change owners, but the salvors are legally entitled to a financial reward, backed by a marine court and, perhaps more practically, insurance. The key point is there are protections for both the original owners and the salvagers; it's never purely finders-keepers, unless you're going criminal. You don't have to copy this exactly; you might decide to do it the other way around, with space salvagers gaining title from an Admiralty court after a partial payment to the owners (possibly necessitating an auction if the salvors don't have ready cash).

The broader takeaway is that whatever you decide on, in-setting lawyers will have already thought this through. There's room for you to decide between an Imperial Admiralty court, or an Admiralty court backed by signatory local governments, or just a corporate board backed by the full weight of Big Insurance. But there will be some kind of system in place, that system will have protections for both ship owners and salvagers, and they will have have some kind of plan for making it stick. If nothing else, there shouldn't be any clean title and registry without appearing before whatever form of Admiralty court you decide on.

 

[ochd]

Hey all, thanks for the responses. Helpful stuff, particularly the pointer to Admiralty Courts.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but how much of chartered space beyond the imperium's borders would imperial citizens (such as the PCs) have access to on library data -- even if just system UPPs? Presumably the IISS have had plenty of time to map the Trojan Reach, etc.

In some cases it may well depend on what you want to have happen, and what rationalization you give it.

Speaking more generally now, and not just on this specific issue, but I think that second part of your sentence -- the rationalization -- is in a nutshell what I find hardest with refereeing. That is, it's one thing to come up with an encounter or adventure or whatever, but trying to come up with the reason it's happening, in a way that makes sense, seems to consume a lot of my thinking time. Or am I over-thinking?

Not a complaint, just an observation.

Dan.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Personally I think that it should take up most of the thinking. The rationalizations, and the reasons for how/why things work in the campaign work is the most important thing you will come up with for your campaign. The combined set of internal rules that make your Traveller Universe tick is what lets the players operate within the game. It also gives your game your personal flavour.

In the salvage scenario you could rule that each incident is dependent on each local system, and then make up systems where players might not get much for salvage, and other systems where finding a ship makes them rich. (But then they have to pay a lot of bribes to deal with local governments). Each scenario and interactions they create makes the universe seem more real to your players, and drives the game forward.

 

[PsiTraveller]

LIbrary data is (to my mind) one of those nice add-ons for the computer system Library as a selling point, so ships likely have as updated a version as they can. Anything close to the Imperium gets the X boat mail, so updates like that could be tucked into the data packet. Starports would offer data updates and captains likely to gather as much information as they can, and trade it around to help with goodwill and reputation as a friendly ship etc.

So in my opinion there would be some sort of data on systems in the computer.

Now a whole slew of adventure possibilities spring to mind when the players check over a found ship and the library data has all sorts of private notes about trading locations and secret locations tucked away in the computer. That sort of data might not be shared.

An example of this is in the Drinax campaingn (Spoiler Alert): the secret base in the Wildeman sector. The location of the base will become part of the players database about the system, but I bet they do not share it out with any starport library they link to.

Or the Sindalian secret base with all the WMD's for another example. The fuel dump near Theev is another example.

 

[ochd]

Now a whole slew of adventure possibilities spring to mind when the players check over a found ship and the library data has all sorts of private notes about trading locations and secret locations tucked away in the computer. That sort of data might not be shared.

Oh bummer, you've just given me a whole bunch of other stuff to think up for the ship salvage in tomorrow's session

Coincidentally, that is a good example for another question I was going to post. Let's say the search through the derelict ship had happened in last week's session, and a player had exactly your thought above -- ie, she wants to search the library database because often ship's logs will contain personal notes about particular systems, etc. But, being of little imagination on-the-spot and having spent too much of my prep time thinking of the legality of salvage rights, I'd not anticipated that question and so just said: er, no, there's just the usual library data. But then later, I realise wow that would have been a good way to open up a number of other adventuring possibilities, as well as reward the player for good thinking. Would it be sloppy to say, "actually, my bad, you know how last session you searched the database, it makes sense that you would have found x, y and z. I just hadn't thought about it at the time"?

Similarly with thinking up rationalizations. Have you had players find perfectly legitimate flaws in your reasoning that you'd not thought of, and how have you handled that? Do you admit your error and come up with something else?

 

[PsiTraveller]

For thinking of a link to an adventure after you said you found nothing you have a few options. Assuming the players are still on the ship or at least connected to it, and have the former owner's stuff you could say the person is messing around on the computer and finds a file in the "'Games" folder, or the porn folder for more laughs. And they notice a text file tucked in the directory. Any personal or private directory works, one that will not be found on a quick search through the computer.

The text folder has a link in it and when clicked goes to a second database hidden in the computer system. That is where the private notes are.

Another option is to allow the intrusion software to be left running and finally find a hit or decrypt the hidden section. It just took longer. Player gets an email notification that the software finally found something.

ANpther option to to have a computer system with a command monocle and when it is worn extra options are available on the screen, showing a hidden file link. So maybe the player did not notice this before on this model of computer. Or special gogles with an inbuilt HUD with the same effect. All sorts of reasons to have the player feel like they discovered something. Hae them wear the goggle to order lunch and see a hidden option pop up to get extra goodies or something. Then try the system out while wearing the goggles and they feel like they solved a puzzle.


As for having the players come up with stuff better than my stuff. Happens all the time. I have players with actual naval backgrounds and military service, so my fumbling attempts at naval doctrine are frequently tossed out. I just say, nice idea, I am stealing that and it is now house canon until we come up with something better. If a better way pops up, give credit and use it!

 

[Condottiere]

The information is encoded in the pornographic high definition pictures, and needs to be reassembled in a certain sequence to make sense, and then decoded again.

The clues are contained in the image set itself, usually as part of the background, like the bakeries named on the discarded pizza boxes.

 

[ochd]

So, after all that worrying about how to administer salvage rights, the players decided not to bother with all that bureaucratic hassle and just go the criminal route and loot what they thought could not be traced. And to avoid anyone else coming along and finding evidence of their pillaging, they put the ship on autopilot and plotted it on a course to plunge into the star and be vaporised.

They did download the ship's library data, so it's given me the opportunity to put in some tips, as per PsiTraveller's helpful suggestion, to pull them rimward towards Trojan Reach and lead in to Pirates of Drinax, since it seems they do want to be pirates after all (Hopefully the new Drinax will be ready for May? Any Mongoose staff reading this?) Fortunately, they have not searched through the data yet, so it's given me a bit of time to think up what some of those clues might be. Something to do with the riches of the old Sindal empire, perhaps?

Anyway, whole bunch of new questions have arisen as a result, perhaps for another thread.

Dan.

 

[ochd]

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but how much of chartered space beyond the imperium's borders would imperial citizens (such as the PCs) have access to on library data -- even if just system UPPs? Presumably the IISS have had plenty of time to map the Trojan Reach, etc.

Further on this point, I came across these couple of points in the (first edition) Trojan Reach supplement, page 8:

The Imperium has little knowledge of the rest of the subsector, especially the Aslan-held subsectors and Menorial, Egryn, Yggdrasil and Dpres. Surveys of Menorial were only completed in 1105 and the Scout service rates all charts of the sector as ‘questionable’.

So it seems that the subsectors beyond the Imperium's border are, at least from an Imperial citizens point of view, more of a mystery than I thought. Which is great from an adventuring point of view.

Dan.

 

[phavoc]

Going off on a bit of a tangent, but how much of chartered space beyond the imperium's borders would imperial citizens (such as the PCs) have access to on library data -- even if just system UPPs? Presumably the IISS have had plenty of time to map the Trojan Reach, etc.

Further on this point, I came across these couple of points in the (first edition) Trojan Reach supplement, page 8:

The Imperium has little knowledge of the rest of the subsector, especially the Aslan-held subsectors and Menorial, Egryn, Yggdrasil and Dpres. Surveys of Menorial were only completed in 1105 and the Scout service rates all charts of the sector as ‘questionable’.

So it seems that the subsectors beyond the Imperium's border are, at least from an Imperial citizens point of view, more of a mystery than I thought. Which is great from an adventuring point of view.

Dan.

Star charts would rarely change. So the major planets and presence of asteroid belts would be known. If there were planetary surveys maps would be, more or less, accurate showing major landmasses, seas, etc.

It's the data that people create/affect that would be questionable. The UPP of a planet can drastically change over decades, going up or down, depending on economic conditions, government changes, even planetary events like weather changes. Other things, like starport ratings, presence of downports/highports, orbital infrastructure, space stations within a system... all changeable at the referee's whim. Heck, even Imperial data is changeable for adventures, because that's not static either. The published material is a great starting point, but adventures need some unknown challenges.

And lots of odd dice rolls behind the referee's screen... :twisted:

 

[PsiTraveller]

This could be used in an adventure as the players make streetwise and diplomacy rolls to find traders just in from that area of space. For the price of a few drinks they can get updates on hte planets they themselves have not visited yet.

Starports out in the Wilds could still try and improve things as they maintain a library and share information between ports. Good informatin could also be a trade item for the players if they move around a lot and update each port in turn.
A simple news gatherer program could be written for the computer to scan and store all the available newsfeeds at a starport and any planetary information nets. This is then sorted by the computer and made ready for uploading along the route (for a fee for the more mercenary players).

 

[Condottiere]

You need a gateway platform to sort through all news, that will identify and bring to your attention the most relevant entries, and what the algorithm considers fake.

Or it could be a news agency, that you either have to pay or subscribe to, or one that makes it's money with targetted advertising.

 

[PsiTraveller]

If any of the players have backgrounds in journalistic or analytical careers (former Scouts perhaps). They might be able to publish reports of the worlds they have traveled to. A michelin guide to the Wild Lands beyond the border.

Malicious software in the news service, fake news and intelligence and counter intelligence maskirovka could be another adventure option. Look at the anti Vargr sentiments in High and Dry the adventure. What if nearby worlds got told stories of the abuses occurring, real or imagined. Could trade issues or military operations be created with decepticve journalism. Could a story be the trigger for a gulf of Tonkin incident?