Initiative vs Chess-Move

[katadder]

but only 50% will have weapons to fire

 

[mollari_uk]

Thinking again about this, boresight is supposed to be a disadvantage, being a huge warship isn't. If it comes down to a choice between favouring either of these I'd rather choose the warship. At the moment the game favours large fleets of smaller low powered ships. If this was the case in "real" life why build large warships at all?

Anyway the worst effected by this are those that only have a boresight weapon and nothing else, and only if they lose the initiative. Again I'd rather these suffer to the rules than high tech ships of ancient races.

 

[DrSeltsam]

At the moment the game favours large fleets of smaller low powered ships. If this was the case in "real" life why build large warships at all?

Anyway the worst effected by this are those that only have a boresight weapon and nothing else, and only if they lose the initiative. Again I'd rather these suffer to the rules than high tech ships of ancient races.

Agree totally with you !
Also i find it very strange that the iconic ships from the show are not the ships that everyone will take as first choice because there are better options ( except some ships : Sharlin & WhiteStar ) and a fleet selections with the breakdown will almost always get more powerful fleet selection ... but maybe this is only me :roll:

 

[Sulfurdown]

*EDIT: and don't forget the potential of that Firehawk vs Young Shadow Ship game that if that 50% that get's the boresight gets a beam-pin, the next turn the Shadow player has a very good chance to lose the game anyway when the entire fleet gains beam boresight.

but only 50% will have weapons to fire

Well not exactly 50%. I'm assuming you mean the slow-loading on the big beam for the turn after the pin, and yes I did completely forget about that. 50% will probably be closer to ~25+% (I'm not sure how one should calculate the impact since 50% of ships would only have 50% of the AD non-operable but that 50% of 50% is trip damage... so it has damage implications but not as severe critical effect implications). So you'd be at between 25% and 50% on that second turn and every one there after assuming you can maintain the pin.

 

[Triggy]

At the moment the game favours large fleets of smaller low powered ships. If this was the case in "real" life why build large warships at all?

Anyway the worst effected by this are those that only have a boresight weapon and nothing else, and only if they lose the initiative. Again I'd rather these suffer to the rules than high tech ships of ancient races.

Agree totally with you !
Also i find it very strange that the iconic ships from the show are not the ships that everyone will take as first choice because there are better options ( except some ships : Sharlin & WhiteStar ) and a fleet selections with the breakdown will almost always get more powerful fleet selection ... but maybe this is only me :roll:

At their PL, the following are among the better choices available in the game:

Patrol
Aurora
Thunderbolt
Sentri
Flyer
Black Omega Starfury
Vorlon Fighter

Skirmish
Vorchan/Demos
Heavy Raider

Raid
White Star
Psi Corps Mothership

Battle
Primus
Omega
Hunter

War
Warlock
Sharlin

Armageddon
Victory

That's about half of the ships from the show being all that they can be. Most of the others are still decent choices and I'm finding it hard to come up with any real lemons other than the Shadow Fighter.

 

[mollari_uk]

I'm really keen to find out a better initiative system (better by my reasons above). So to get back on topic will the splitting system work?

I've been trying to write down combinations and see how easy it is to work out who moves what on the fly and I think it's a simple division:

Lets say we have 3 Minbari ships vs 10 earth ships.

10 / 3 = 3 with 1 left, so Earth move 3 ships per 1 minbari. I suggest the remainder is moved with the last group.

Here's a break down of each movement phase:

Normal rules
Earth win initiative:
M1 / E1 / M1 / E1 / M1 / E8 (8 ships move after minbari)
Minbari win initiative:
E1 / M1 / E1 / M1 / E1 / M1 / E7 (7 ships are moved after the Minbari, even though they won the initiative! There's very little difference)

My rules
Earth win initiative:
M1 / E3 / M1 / E3 / M1 / E4 (only 4 ships move after minbari, but it's still 4 ships!)
Minbari win initiative:
E3 / M1 / E3 / M1 / E4 / M1 (The minbari actually move last as a result of wining the iniative!)

Your thoughts before going any further?

 

[Burger]

I don't think using the "little vesus large" argmenent as a counter to boresight being broken under this suggested initiative, is a good idea. One broken rule to fix another broken rule is not good. Try to keep them separate, and fix them both independently.

This suggestion means that Boresight-dependent races would lose firepower due to the way initiative and Boresight works. A non-boresight swarm fleet would still have a huge advantage. You've basically only screwed the Boresighters over, not swarm fleets in general.

 

[mollari_uk]

Boresights will still have plenty of targets using my system. In fact if both fleets have the same number of ships then the system doesn't change boresights at all. If they have less ships then boresights become better than they are as they'll have more targets.

Anyway, boresights aren't my issue (or the topic's). Initiative is.

Don't mean to sound like a nob btw, just clarifying my post.

EDIT - Did you add that second line afterwards? I didn't see it the first time. Anyway, edited my post to make more sense.

EDIT 2 - Doh! Also meant to say that swarm fleets are screwed by my suggestion. They can't save all their ships till last and it gives smaller fleets much more to target. In fact if the smaller fleet wins initiative they get to move a ship last.

 

[Burger]

Boresighting is directly infulenced by initiative. Change one, and the other needs rebalancing. In your example above if EA was all boresighted, then they'd lose 3 ships' fire if they lost initiative... if the Minbari had just one Leshath initiative sink lurking at the back then the EA would lose 6 ships' fire... thats a 60% loss in firepower.

Non-boresight swarm fleets in general don't need initiative sinks to win. They win because as Sulfurdown said above, they have redundancy, and in general more combined firepower.

 

[mollari_uk]

Ok so I accept my suggestion screws 'swarm boresight' fleets. I'm half way there aren't I? :lol:

Seriously though, I'm pretty much a noob at this so I'm only going on how it would play in my head but I still think I'm on the right track (please continue to try to prove me wrong as I want this to work).

I'm a shadow player and in my limited experience initiative +6 and SM movement counts little against a fleet with loads of ships, boresight or no (from what I've seen, the Vorlons have it even worse).

I'll reiterate, boresight is only affected by my system if it's also a swarm fleet. If it's the smaller fleet than the enemy boresight gets an advantage.

This would probably suit my group as no-one will play such a fleet anyway. Narn's and Earth (only boresight races in my group I think) have the option of picking larger ships and a mix of boresight/non-boresight anyway.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

problem with CBT system is CBT doesnt have init mods. also some races like the Shadows would pretty much always move last so could take a one ship fleet that can never be hit by boresights. if ACTA didnt have boresights then yes the CBT system would work.

CBT does have initiative mods. They're in the optional rules for canon regiments in the various field manuals

 

[Burger]

Okay, lets take a boresighted non-swarm fleet versus the Minbari you have as above... 3 Stormfalcons against 3 Tinashi...

If Drazi win initiative:
M1, D1, M1, D1, M1, D1.
If Minbari win (which they will 70% of the time... +4 vs +1 bonus):
D1, M1, D1, M1, D1, M1.

So when the Minbari win initiative, the Drazi still lose 1/3 of their firepower. If the Minbari have a Leshath lurking at the back, the Drazi lose 2/3 of their firepower.

The Drazi are meant to use a swarm fleet, to overcome their reliance on Boresight. If they can't out-initiative-sink an opponent, they lose firepower, and will probably lose the game. If you change the initiative system, you also have to change the Boresight mechanic.

 

[katadder]

problem with CBT system is CBT doesnt have init mods. also some races like the Shadows would pretty much always move last so could take a one ship fleet that can never be hit by boresights. if ACTA didnt have boresights then yes the CBT system would work.

CBT does have initiative mods. They're in the optional rules for canon regiments in the various field manuals

exactly, optional rules. not part of the mainstream.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Okay, lets take a boresighted non-swarm fleet versus the Minbari you have as above... 3 Stormfalcons against 3 Tinashi...

If Drazi win initiative:
M1, D1, M1, D1, M1, D1.
If Minbari win (which they will 70% of the time... +4 vs +1 bonus):
D1, M1, D1, M1, D1, M1.

So when the Minbari win initiative, the Drazi still lose 1/3 of their firepower. If the Minbari have a Leshath lurking at the back, the Drazi lose 2/3 of their firepower.

The Drazi are meant to use a swarm fleet, to overcome their reliance on Boresight. If they can't out-initiative-sink an opponent, they lose firepower, and will probably lose the game. If you change the initiative system, you also have to change the Boresight mechanic.

From what I've seen of boresight fleets, their boresight weapons are slightly more powerful then the standard forward weapons. Wouldn't that be done specifically FOR those situations where your one ship doesn't get it's targeting? Otherwise why do boresight weapons tend to have higher dice or damage then comparable forward weapons?

 

[Lokai]

I'd love for them to do something about the initiative system because it does favor fleets of small vessels a bit to much. to win initiative and to still in essence lose initiateve is pretty retarded....but as stated above boresight rules in particular would have to be adjusted to implement some of the above GROUPED moving, but something along those lines should be considered if an adjustment to boresight can be made.

 

[Ripple]

Boresighted weapons do tend to have slightly more dice. However, that often isn't enough in the case of the Drazi fleet in particular.

Boresight does not allow for redirecting fire if you do better than expected, forward arc does (as do other arcs).

Boresight does not for targeting ships that have gotten to your side, while a single turn on a foreward arc often does.

Boresight also forces ships to move directly toward the enemy, giving up range and the ability to do an oblige pass, shooting from the edge of the arc.

Penalties for the arc are not just when it gets to fire, but the situation the ships are forced into to fire. The 20% to 50% boost in dice doesn't equal out with the lost opportunities. If we were talking a small fraction of a force it could, such as EA can field, but the Narn and the Drazi are more dependent. For them it is often not going to be a ship that doesn't fire, or only fires secondaries, but a significant portion of a fleet. If it would only be one ship, I'd agree it doesn't make that big a difference.

On initiative, also keep in mind you would have to change the squadron rules as well. Right now initiative is often only partially relevant to man fleets that have a decent low level non-bore ship. You squadron the majority of you large ships and take many single low level patrol (or sub patrol) ship to move until you have targets. Then fire the squadron first. The result is that the activation system is nearly bypass into a 'I go, You go' initiative system.

Ripple

Ripple

 

[Taran]

problem with CBT system is CBT doesnt have init mods. also some races like the Shadows would pretty much always move last so could take a one ship fleet that can never be hit by boresights. if ACTA didnt have boresights then yes the CBT system would work.

CBT does have initiative mods. They're in the optional rules for canon regiments in the various field manuals

exactly, optional rules. not part of the mainstream.

ummm, so what?

Your point was that CBT never accounted for init mods. Nagle, just proved you wrong. So they're not mainstream, the rules are still there and available for comparison.

 

[katadder]

not that i have seen them anywhere in the field manuals i do have. the fact the rules are not in any rulebooks but background books probably for specific elite units means they are for special occasions/scenarioes and may well be broken therefore not a good comparison.
the fact that after 20 years of playing and incorporating all the best rules and suggestions into total warfare and init mods are not in that also suggests to me they dont work very well for mainstream play. which is what you are suggesting for ACTA.