BTW, small point - the reason there isn't a 45 or 30 (or other) degree arc out there in the game is that Mongoose don't want the game to be played with protractors. 90 degrees works as it's the corner of any sheet of paper (and therefore also gives the 45 degree turn). Any other angle isn't going to be used in the current incarnation of the game.
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Initiative sinking - new solution?
- Thread starter CheesyRobMan
- Start date
So what is the solution? Everyone has a side to these debates, and mostly the sides are representative of that persons favored ship, or fleet. How is the trio going to address balance, re-balancing, and these overall concerns, that seem to be popping up all over?Triggy said:BTW, small point - the reason there isn't a 45 or 30 (or other) degree arc out there in the game is that Mongoose don't want the game to be played with protractors. 90 degrees works as it's the corner of any sheet of paper (and therefore also gives the 45 degree turn). Any other angle isn't going to be used in the current incarnation of the game.
I hear a lot of "this won't work because", and since none of us have come up with solutions that you like, where are we in the process? I've got friends, new friends, friends I was excited to be playing with on each of our league days, talking about how this game has taken a turn for the worse with these updates, and as someone coming into the game, the type of player you need to grow, and continue to be worth enough in revenues to warrant Matt's time... it just isn't a good sign.
Give me a ray of hope Triggy. Hold me gently, tell me its all going to be alright. You know... like... not in a gay way...
Hindsight - the game is designed around the current mechanics and most of the ships and fleets are pretty balanced as it is. The reason these debates come up is that some of the mechanics are awkward and imperfect. The main ones to fall into this category are boresight, initiative and stealth. We have improved stealth in this edition (it's still not perfect but it is better) and with P&P we're looking to give people more options with TTT.
As for ship balance - we've picked only the ships with the biggest issues (and yes, the White Star is one of the top ten powerful ships for their PL, probably top five) as we're not rewriting the entire list. This again would only be within the scope of a new edition (or like Sky Full of Stars a supplement aimed at a rewrite of all the fleet lists).
You say that the game looks to be changing for the worse - this is one of the biggest issues with opening up the playtesting to the public. The rules are nowhere near finished versions and a lot of assumptions have been made that not many changes will happen before P&P is published. Anything that is generally unpopular will either be changed or dropped. Enough support for introducing something will lead to a good chance of it being introduced. I hope that this assuages your fears somewhat.
As for ship balance - we've picked only the ships with the biggest issues (and yes, the White Star is one of the top ten powerful ships for their PL, probably top five) as we're not rewriting the entire list. This again would only be within the scope of a new edition (or like Sky Full of Stars a supplement aimed at a rewrite of all the fleet lists).
You say that the game looks to be changing for the worse - this is one of the biggest issues with opening up the playtesting to the public. The rules are nowhere near finished versions and a lot of assumptions have been made that not many changes will happen before P&P is published. Anything that is generally unpopular will either be changed or dropped. Enough support for introducing something will lead to a good chance of it being introduced. I hope that this assuages your fears somewhat.
I'm sorry, for starters. We're having three different discussions, just about in real time, in three different threads, and that is a lot for me to keep up with and I can only imagine how it is for you given everything else you're dealing with in your own life, on top of this what I assume is a volunteer process for you.
I am no expert at this game. I have tried my damnedest to stay out of discussions where the context is lost on me, and have put a good deal of research time into what I contribute, as far as how best it can represent what we see on the show. I come into this game, while watching the series beginning to end whenever I sit at home, painting.
I work for Games Workshop, so whether I am painting something for 40k, or a White Star, I have the DVD going, much to my wifes frustration. She doesn't hate the show, she just isn't a fan like I am. So I use that time watching the show to be reminded of details, and bringing those old memories, and new ones, to these discussions.
I guess my real concern, with the bore sight discussion is pretty obvious, but the math brought up on the White Star, and how I feel it would go from being top five, to bottom five, and that concerns me. Could we lose the value somewhere else? Range? Speed? I'm just not a fan of these invented craft, and I should be able to have a good time fielding a fleet as it was seen on the show, an army of White Stars, ready to represent the core values of the Anla'Shock. Then we get the Tara'lin, even though Delenn brings the Dogoto along all the time in the show, we get a Tara'lin, not a true Sharlin cruiser. How does that work out, how is that necessary?
I'm not saying personally that the game is broken, but what I am HEARING is that some in my local group are deeply frustrated, and have felt like posting in the forums is of no value, as it will do no good. I'm not like that, I have faith that if we keep our cool and go back and forth we'll come to some compromise, or at the very least through debate may spark an idea for yourself, or one of the other primary testers, and that may take us somewhere we want to be with the game. I just don't have the experience with it to say it is taking a turn for the worse, but obviously as someone that feels the White Star SHOULD BE in the top five, that it should stay that way, as unless you can show me that it is number one, with a clear advantage over every other raid ship, I just don't see the value in nerfing it, unless the other top five and even more so those 1-4 choices that are deemed better, why they too do not get the nerf bat.
That comes down to the popularity of the ship. It is the flagship of the show, the ship the Army of Light thrived because of, of course it is going to get close scrutiny, but remember you said top five, and not "that strongest broken ship" and that has to account for something.
I am no expert at this game. I have tried my damnedest to stay out of discussions where the context is lost on me, and have put a good deal of research time into what I contribute, as far as how best it can represent what we see on the show. I come into this game, while watching the series beginning to end whenever I sit at home, painting.
I work for Games Workshop, so whether I am painting something for 40k, or a White Star, I have the DVD going, much to my wifes frustration. She doesn't hate the show, she just isn't a fan like I am. So I use that time watching the show to be reminded of details, and bringing those old memories, and new ones, to these discussions.
I guess my real concern, with the bore sight discussion is pretty obvious, but the math brought up on the White Star, and how I feel it would go from being top five, to bottom five, and that concerns me. Could we lose the value somewhere else? Range? Speed? I'm just not a fan of these invented craft, and I should be able to have a good time fielding a fleet as it was seen on the show, an army of White Stars, ready to represent the core values of the Anla'Shock. Then we get the Tara'lin, even though Delenn brings the Dogoto along all the time in the show, we get a Tara'lin, not a true Sharlin cruiser. How does that work out, how is that necessary?
I'm not saying personally that the game is broken, but what I am HEARING is that some in my local group are deeply frustrated, and have felt like posting in the forums is of no value, as it will do no good. I'm not like that, I have faith that if we keep our cool and go back and forth we'll come to some compromise, or at the very least through debate may spark an idea for yourself, or one of the other primary testers, and that may take us somewhere we want to be with the game. I just don't have the experience with it to say it is taking a turn for the worse, but obviously as someone that feels the White Star SHOULD BE in the top five, that it should stay that way, as unless you can show me that it is number one, with a clear advantage over every other raid ship, I just don't see the value in nerfing it, unless the other top five and even more so those 1-4 choices that are deemed better, why they too do not get the nerf bat.
That comes down to the popularity of the ship. It is the flagship of the show, the ship the Army of Light thrived because of, of course it is going to get close scrutiny, but remember you said top five, and not "that strongest broken ship" and that has to account for something.
Hindsight - what are your (and your group's) main areas of concern/frustration?
On the White Star - the attempt is to make it balanced in the middle of the pack, not to make it bottom five. It is unlikely the proposed change will make it a poor choice, particularly on previous evidence when it only had 1AD and it was about right (the change only came in with the change to be beam mechanic to make it more reliable, however this obviously doubled the beam firepower too). If it doesn't work as borne out in games then we'll reevaluate.
On the White Star - the attempt is to make it balanced in the middle of the pack, not to make it bottom five. It is unlikely the proposed change will make it a poor choice, particularly on previous evidence when it only had 1AD and it was about right (the change only came in with the change to be beam mechanic to make it more reliable, however this obviously doubled the beam firepower too). If it doesn't work as borne out in games then we'll reevaluate.
I felt it, in our play. I felt that one dice, as thats just one 50/50 shot at doing nothing, for my whole shooting round, unless I'm close. So I CBD and sit at a distance, with my Dag'Kars, letting them come to me, and I went from being excited that I just bought a bunch of White Stars, to just being so so on it.
Do you have the math for what the change does to the White Star? Can you measure something that is a choice?
Do you have the math for what the change does to the White Star? Can you measure something that is a choice?
A White Star is currently worth 1.25 of a typical Raid PL ship by the maths. With the proposed change it's a lot harder to measure but for comparison, if it went straight to 1AD on the beam then it would be worth approximately 0.97 of a typical Raid PL ship. With the proposed change it would be somewhere in the middle.Hindsight said:I felt it, in our play. I felt that one dice, as thats just one 50/50 shot at doing nothing, for my whole shooting round, unless I'm close. So I CBD and sit at a distance, with my Dag'Kars, letting them come to me, and I went from being excited that I just bought a bunch of White Stars, to just being so so on it.
Do you have the math for what the change does to the White Star? Can you measure something that is a choice?
How many total raid ships are there, and where would it be in the rankings of all the raid ships? It should be top notch, as it was the best thing ever seen by the younger races, and matched only by those influenced by the first ones, like the Drakh. Would losing 2" or 4" range on the beam weapon, bring it down in value?
I just hate rolling only one dice of a beam weapon, its like my Tau Railguns. You miss that one dice roll, a single dice roll, and all your shooting is practically over, and thats your whole raid point for that turn.
I really am going now ;-)
I just hate rolling only one dice of a beam weapon, its like my Tau Railguns. You miss that one dice roll, a single dice roll, and all your shooting is practically over, and thats your whole raid point for that turn.
I really am going now ;-)
Being better than other ships is represented by being in a higher PL, not by making them better but at the same PL. Therefore in theory every ship of a certain PL should be of equal value to their fleet.Hindsight said:How many total raid ships are there, and where would it be in the rankings of all the raid ships? It should be top notch, as it was the best thing ever seen by the younger races, and matched only by those influenced by the first ones, like the Drakh. Would losing 2" or 4" range on the beam weapon, bring it down in value?
I just hate rolling only one dice of a beam weapon, its like my Tau Railguns. You miss that one dice roll, a single dice roll, and all your shooting is practically over, and thats your whole raid point for that turn.
I really am going now ;-)
I understand your point about rolling 1AD - that was why it was raised in the first place. Now you have the choice... you can still use 2AD where the enemy have interceptors and/or hull 6 but the molecular pulsars are better than 1ad of neutron laser when they are targetting hull 5 and no interceptors/there are lots of interceptable shots coming in to deplete interceptors.
Reducing range is not a massive issue because of the huge speed on the White Star. It would reduce its effectiveness maybe 1 or 2%.
eldiablito
Mongoose
Triggy said:BTW, small point - the reason there isn't a 45 or 30 (or other) degree arc out there in the game is that Mongoose don't want the game to be played with protractors. 90 degrees works as it's the corner of any sheet of paper (and therefore also gives the 45 degree turn). Any other angle isn't going to be used in the current incarnation of the game.
Anyone who is even half-way decent with folding a piece of paper can calculate a 45 degree arc (and by extension, a 22.5 degree); You do this by folding the same piece of paper in half, along a corner. If Bore-sight weapons were downgraded and their arc was half the flexibility of a forward gun, then you can do just fine... no more need for the protractors.
Also, there are some great templates available for this game already. I'm a huge fan of the GF9 products for this game, but if all they did was recycle the GF9 arcs for other game systems, then a 45 degree template could be generated, just as easily.
I see people starting to say that because there aren't more people coming out against the White Stars becoming Bore Sight, that it means it should happen, and that is frustrating. The vocal minority changing a game mechanic has always plagued the internet. A good chunk of the people who play, I'd say a greater chunk, probably never visit these boards, or if they do, just browse and not jump in like we have.
My point was not made clearly I guess, so let me try to clarify. What has a higher % than a White Star? Why are those craft not also being adjusted? What can we take away, or modify, to make it a smaller change, as one AD is a pretty big difference when you consider how far a beam can take you, or rather how it will take you nowhere if you only get one crack at generating some dice. I'll give you a Pulsar dice =)
My point was not made clearly I guess, so let me try to clarify. What has a higher % than a White Star? Why are those craft not also being adjusted? What can we take away, or modify, to make it a smaller change, as one AD is a pretty big difference when you consider how far a beam can take you, or rather how it will take you nowhere if you only get one crack at generating some dice. I'll give you a Pulsar dice =)
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Hindsight said:I see people starting to say that because there aren't more people coming out against the White Stars becoming Bore Sight, that it means it should happen, and that is frustrating. The vocal minority changing a game mechanic has always plagued the internet. A good chunk of the people who play, I'd say a greater chunk, probably never visit these boards, or if they do, just browse and not jump in like we have.
My point was not made clearly I guess, so let me try to clarify. What has a higher % than a White Star? Why are those craft not also being adjusted? What can we take away, or modify, to make it a smaller change, as one AD is a pretty big difference when you consider how far a beam can take you, or rather how it will take you nowhere if you only get one crack at generating some dice. I'll give you a Pulsar dice =)
I'm in the 'boresighted white star' group. However,
A better SA should be created to handle boresight and init sinking (ships save a turn to use after a target ship has been moved, opposed CQ)
The white star shouldn't lose AD when firing all weapons
Initiative should be based on speed + init score and taken in 'groups' with alternating movements
All those together as changes, thank you.
I like the bore sighted white star, as I've said before, because the WS then has to 'strafe' its target, like it does in the show. right now it is VERY easy for the whtie star to flitter around the outside of a targets firing arcs using the edge of its 18in F-arc beam and its speed advantage to keep out of harms way
Strafing implies moving simultaneously. As this stands, it is you standing still, and us flying past you, firing a weapon. That just can't be represented in the game. A bore sighted white star, becomes something that maneuvers less, doesn't strafe at all because it has no incentive to fly past something, pull a Uey, and come back for more.
Bore Sighted White Stars would sit back at max range, doing what they can. It'd be like playing the Narns, and thats not how the White Stars should play in a game where their speed would be an advantage.
What is the point in having a high speed bore sight weapon? Speed is irrelevant, as only line of sight is calculated. As it is now, I have to more or less move in a straight line, fly past a target, as I have a front arc, and then swing around to continue firing, this represents visually on the table more of what we see from the ship in the show, it flying by, doing damage, banking hard 180 and coming back for more.
You package a lot of stuff into your overall game changes, and I just don't like how there are so many "you can bore sight the White Star if you also change X, Y, Z." I don't think we're at that point in playtesting. We're at the single variable stage, and I feel very strongly that just switching the F to a B makes the entire ISA unplayable.
CQ 5 + D6 needs a 4+. Thats a 50% chance to be able to Track That Target. Do you really want to tell me that the White Star can't track a target half the time? I'd maybe, maybe accept a special bonus to TTT for the White Star, allowing it its full dice as it is now, but getting a +2 Bonus for being Agile or something. I imagine most of the other boresighted ships lack Agile, and thus wouldn't get this bonus.
Even giving it a TTT failure on a 1 or a 2 means that it fails to aquire a target 33% of the time. The best representation of this, to rebalance the White Star would be a D6 check to TTT failing only on a one. Even that is not representative of the show, where the White Star never missed its mark.
Bore Sighted White Stars would sit back at max range, doing what they can. It'd be like playing the Narns, and thats not how the White Stars should play in a game where their speed would be an advantage.
What is the point in having a high speed bore sight weapon? Speed is irrelevant, as only line of sight is calculated. As it is now, I have to more or less move in a straight line, fly past a target, as I have a front arc, and then swing around to continue firing, this represents visually on the table more of what we see from the ship in the show, it flying by, doing damage, banking hard 180 and coming back for more.
You package a lot of stuff into your overall game changes, and I just don't like how there are so many "you can bore sight the White Star if you also change X, Y, Z." I don't think we're at that point in playtesting. We're at the single variable stage, and I feel very strongly that just switching the F to a B makes the entire ISA unplayable.
CQ 5 + D6 needs a 4+. Thats a 50% chance to be able to Track That Target. Do you really want to tell me that the White Star can't track a target half the time? I'd maybe, maybe accept a special bonus to TTT for the White Star, allowing it its full dice as it is now, but getting a +2 Bonus for being Agile or something. I imagine most of the other boresighted ships lack Agile, and thus wouldn't get this bonus.
Even giving it a TTT failure on a 1 or a 2 means that it fails to aquire a target 33% of the time. The best representation of this, to rebalance the White Star would be a D6 check to TTT failing only on a one. Even that is not representative of the show, where the White Star never missed its mark.
At Raid PL nothing is better than a White Star.Hindsight said:My point was not made clearly I guess, so let me try to clarify. What has a higher % than a White Star? Why are those craft not also being adjusted? What can we take away, or modify, to make it a smaller change, as one AD is a pretty big difference when you consider how far a beam can take you, or rather how it will take you nowhere if you only get one crack at generating some dice. I'll give you a Pulsar dice =)
As for other ships that are better, percentage-wise, than the White Star you have: G'Vrahn, Xeel and the Demos. All of these are being adjusted too.
There are a few others that are very close like the Blue Star, Amu Mothership, Xaar, Vorchan and the Psi Corps Mothership (and two-for-one ships). Two are being adjusted (and two-fors) and three aren't. Basically there isn't a ship better than the White Star that isn't being looked at. As for the change itself - either boresight or the energy management solutions both bring the White Star to about the median point of Raid PL ships. This is exactly where ships should be.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Hindsight said:Bore Sighted White Stars would sit back at max range, doing what they can. It'd be like playing the Narns, and thats not how the White Stars should play in a game where their speed would be an advantage.
In my experience, that is *exactly* what you see White Stars doing right now. I seldom see them (or use them) firing their pulsars because to do so would mean they would end up in secondary range from some races. So they flit about from arc to arc (avoiding F where possible), keeping their range at long as possible whilst still with 18".
A game against WS usually goes as follows:
1. Both sides advance, the WS usually as quickly as possible (APtE perhaps). Everyone fires - the WS hope that their dodge rolls are good.
2. The WS end up behind the enemy fleet,and against many fleets this can often mean they face little or no return fire (Vree and Minbari obvious exceptions).
Obviously if you're playing against ISA, you can mitigate this somewhat with tactics (for example, holding back some ships for covering firing) but even then you're reliant on the WS entering any firing zone you create.
A boresight White Star would need to close to pulsar range if it couldn't get its beam on bore if it wants to fire at all, so they should actually behave more like they do in the show! Having said that, I think they their pulsars should have no more than 8" range either!
Regards,
Dave
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