Initiating a Dogfight with a CAP

[Enalut]

Can you initiate a dogfight with a CAP to allow other fighters to engage the capital ship?

The situation this came up in was a ISA/Minbari Battle(me) (5 Whitestars vs. 2 Morshins). after manouvering into position I nominated 3-4 nials to taxke doen the singel nial CAP, and then fired the remaining nials as normal at the white star (we had agreed to handle it this way).

This seemd to be how it should work--I had won initative and nominated a single fighter to engage w/ support.

Is this right? or do I have to engage the CAP with all my fighters?

 

[CodeofArms]

By Cap do you mean 'restrict the number of flights commited into the dogfight?' If so unless you or your opponent initiates a dogfight with any of the 'unengaged' flights they can fire as normal.

IE. You get to elect which ever flights you want to commit to a dogfight (giving appropriate bonuses) and those you don't. Just remember those who commit to or support a dogfight cannot fire in the same turn.

And BTW. From what I can understand from your post you are correct. :wink:

 

[Epaminondas]

CAP not cap.
Combat Air Patrol; officially "supporting flights."

Yes, you can initate a dogfight with CAP with a good fighter and let the bombers take a pass at the capital ship.

To defend a fleet you need more medium and long ranging fighters to screen- supporting/CAP fighters are easily killed.

 

[Alexb83]

Any fighter flight which is designated as defending a ship gets an opportunity to attack any one fighter attacking the ship it is escorting - this would be before it would get engaged with any fighter coming to engage the defending base itsself.

I think the way it's worded is along the lines of: whenever a supported ship is targetted, the supporting flights are moved immediately into base combat with it. This doesn't deal with whether or not the supporting flights can be intercepted themselves.

I would suggest that supporting flights have priority in defending their supported ship, as they can see the enemy coming and have been assigned to support.

If they win the dogfight with the fighters attacking the ship, they go back to their base and then you can dogfight them with another flight (or more than one). If they lose, they die, if they draw, they remain in a dogfight with the attacking fighter and you can then move to engage them with your next flight(s)

 

[Ripple]

I did not get the impression from the rule that supporting flights could dogfight multiple times in a turn. ie if it wins it goes back and engages another flight attacking its defended ship. I was under the impression that all attacks from fighters were simultaneous for acting side in the battle, therefore there was no chain of flights to attack, just one sudden wave.

Ripple

 

[Alexb83]

The supporting fighter cannot intercept multiple enemies, it is stated such in the rules (the supporting flight is immediately moved into contact with an attacking fighter, and if it wins the combat it is immediately moved back.

So, you win initiative and move half your fighters to attack the ship, and the other half to attack the fighter. Unfortunately for you, the fighter you attacked gets to moved out of combat and engage your fighters which were attacking the ship before (sic. immediately) you get to engage the supporting fighter in a dogfight.

If it survives and moves back to where it was before, then you can dogfight.

And yes, in the revised rules it does say that flights can fight multiple dogfights in one turn. Supporting flights can only carry out one supporting dogfight in one turn.

 

[Epaminondas]

The CAP is still on the table, can still be targeted with antifighter weapons, be blown up by energy mines, exploding ships etc.

So why can't an attack move up a few fighters first, and engage the CAP, before moving the bombers up?

After all, the supporting rules indicat such combat is immediate, before everything else.

 

[Alexb83]

All fighters are moved simultaneously, so if you move your fighters up in the same turn as your bombers, they are inseperable - the rules state that as soon as a fighter moves to attack an escorted ship, the escort is immediately (before all else) moved to engage it. If it beats it in the ensuing dogfight, it is replaced where it was and can be shot at if you wish.
Alternatively, you could use your fighters to escort your bombers (that's what the rule is there for!) and they will engage the supporting flight, allowing your bombers to carry on to the target without being interrupted.

 

[lastbesthope]

The way I've played it, and I'm sure it was discussed in an earlier thread. If you move one of your flights into base contact with an escorting flight of the enemy then the escorting flight is tied up in dogfight.


LBH

 

[Alexb83]

That's fine, LBH - but the supporting flight rule says that you move it out immediately as soon as the supported ship is attacked. Since the supported ship is attacked at the same time you move your flight to engage the supporting flight, it moves out of your planned engagement and hits the other fighter (attacking its ship), then moves back (if it survives). That's how the rules are written.

At MoW, Adam and I played our first game and this came up - he moved some drazi fighters to attack my ship, and moved some Vree to try and engage my escorting Nial. the Nial moved off, killed the Drazi, moved back, was engaged by the Vree, and killed them too.

If he'd really wanted to delay them from the Drazi, he should've put the Vree supporting them. (again, that's what the flights supporting flights rule is for!!)

 

[Epaminondas]

Technically however that attacking fighter attempting to attack the CAP can be attacking the ship- thus sucking up the intercept.

The CAP intercept isn't optional.

 

[Alexb83]

Not really - the attacking fighters have to be declared as to what they're doing during the activation. That's how you discriminate which are to be intercepted and which not.

If you want to soak up the intercept, you escort the fighter attacking the ship, simple as that.

 

[Soulmage]

CAP not cap.
Combat Air Patrol; officially "supporting flights."

Battlestar Galactica makes this concession because CAP sounds better than CSP (Combat Space Patrol) or CZP (Combat Zone Patrol). But really it ought to be one of the latter, or something similar.

. . . and "Supporting Flights" isn't really the definition of a CAP.

Same idea goes for "CAG" (Commander Air Group).

 

[Davesaint]

That's fine, LBH - but the supporting flight rule says that you move it out immediately as soon as the supported ship is attacked. Since the supported ship is attacked at the same time you move your flight to engage the supporting flight, it moves out of your planned engagement and hits the other fighter (attacking its ship), then moves back (if it survives). That's how the rules are written.

At MoW, Adam and I played our first game and this came up - he moved some drazi fighters to attack my ship, and moved some Vree to try and engage my escorting Nial. the Nial moved off, killed the Drazi, moved back, was engaged by the Vree, and killed them too.

If he'd really wanted to delay them from the Drazi, he should've put the Vree supporting them. (again, that's what the flights supporting flights rule is for!!)

So you are saying that your nial fighters got to engage multiple targets in your dogfight phase? That is nuts.

Dave

 

[Alexb83]

No, they made their move to support (as they have to) they won it. They then moved back to where they were (as they are allowed to) and were engaged by an enemy flight.

Each flight may only engage the enemy once, but as the multiple dogfight rules show, there's nothing to say you can't attack the same flight multiple times with different flights of your own (as in this case)

 

[Davesaint]

No, they made their move to support (as they have to) they won it. They then moved back to where they were (as they are allowed to) and were engaged by an enemy flight.

Each flight may only engage the enemy once, but as the multiple dogfight rules show, there's nothing to say you can't attack the same flight multiple times with different flights of your own (as in this case)

Except that you are engaging multiple flights in multiple locations in the same dogfight phase.

For example - lets say you have 4 Sentri's escorting your prefect. I win initiative on that turn. I move 4 Starfuries into base to base contact with your escorting fighters and I haVE 4 flights of t-bots that end at range 4 from the prefect in the aft arc.

By your logic, your fighters would move out and engage my T-Bolts eventhough they have already been engaged by my starfuries in a dogfight.

The caveat to this is that I won Initiative and I can nominate which flight of fighters will activate first. So lets say I nominate my starfury against your sentri and they engage in a dogfight. Lets say the dogfight ends in a deadlock, under your interpretation, you would then move out and engage my t-bolts in your dogfight stage, which is after my t-bolts have fired anyway. That makes no sense.


Dave

 

[Alexb83]

It doesn't matter that you've engaged them - the supporting flights rule is explicit that as soon as you move ships to engage the supported ship, the supporting flights are immediately moved out to engage the enemy, and then moved back where they came from if they win (or remaining locked if they draw). It doesn't happen in my dogfight phase - it happens immediately on your attack run.

Your only recourse to do what you keep wanting to do (stop the supporting flights) is to escort your thunderbolts. Then when the supporting flights come out to engage your tbolts, your starfuries immediately move to stop the sentries, as per the rules for supporting other flights. The thunderbolts are then free to do their attack run (they would not be able to if they had been intercepted, whether they won, lost or drew vs. the sentri, as per the rules).

And again, the supporting flight is not engaging multiple enemies - it is engaging only one. The enemy then choose to engage it - subtle distinction.

 

[Chernobyl]

dogfights happen in the attack phase...if the CAP is angaged by starfuries in the attacker's movement phase, they're locked up in dogfight and then can't engage the thunderbolts who have moved nearby, but not into contact with the CAP, right?

Chern

 

[prelude_to_war]

Hm, this is getting confusing. Since all fighter movement for attacker and defender is simultaneous, doesn't the defender have the opportunity to intercept fighters attacking his ship via CAP? In other words, do dogfights created via CAP supercede non-CAP initiated dogfights?

 

[Chernobyl]

ok, I've gone back and read page 11 of SFOS (the relevant rules..."supporting ships")

basically, if you want to protect a ship from attack by an aux craft, you can have a fighter on the base of the ship (up to a max of 4 flights) that will automatically intercept a craft that attacks the ship. The flip side is, though, that the attacking flight can also have 1 escort flight (think bomber escorts in WW2) each, which then dogfights the intercepting flight, preventing the intercepting flight from dogfighting the attacking flight.
So if you can have 4 escorts, (and 4 attackers, remember 1 for 1) then you can attack the ship without your bombers being attacked.
What it doesn't discuss however (and thus the gray area that I now see) is what happens when the attacker doesn't have enough flights to escort all the attackers? say there's 4 defenders, and 3 attackers with escorting flights. 3 get intercepted, which the escorts handle, but the 4th interceptor does what? attack one of the bombers? or does the interception allow the bomber to attack the ship regardless?

Chernobyl