Improvment rules question

[Deleriad]

OK, I've been trying to get my head around this for ages but it just doesn't make sense to me: improvement rolls.

Now I know there is one problem that everyone knows of but Mongoose has never addressed: how long does it take to learn a new advanced skill?

Putting that to one side, as far as I can tell, you have to earn Improvement Rolls first through "going adventuring" and then spend time doing practice or research with an optional mentor. Once you have done that then you can "spend" your Improvement rolls.

Is this correct and, if so, what do you do with your character in lengthy "downtimes" if they run out of Improvement Rolls to spend? Come to that, how does anyone get better at anything without running off on adventures and killing goblins for Improvement Rolls.

 

[Loz]

I think it depends largely on the advanced skll being learnt, so much is down to GM fiat. When learning a new advanced skill you're gaining it at the base ability, so the higher the base result the more 'natural' aptitude one has for the basics of that skill and that could be reflected in the time taken to learn it.

How about this: days equal to gain an advanced skill at base level = 40 - Stat X + Stat Y, with a further modification based on GM fiat reflecting the skill being learnt.

For EG, a character wants to learn Mechanisms from scratch. He has DEX and INT of 12 each, so it would take 40-24 = 16 days to gain that skill at 24%, assuming he's spending a good portion of each day learning the essentials of skill.

If a tutor or mentor is involved, then every 10% he has above the student's base score in the skill reduces the time taken by 1 day. So if our example character above is being tutored by someone with 54% in the skill, then the number of days is reduced by 3 to 13.

The GM might also rule that, because Mechanisms is a reasonably complex skill, a base of 4 days is necessary to get a grounding in basic physics, pushing that total time up to 17 days.

Its only a suggestion and rule of thumb, of course. Other suggestions welcomed.

Is this correct and, if so, what do you do with your character in lengthy "downtimes" if they run out of Improvement Rolls to spend? Come to that, how does anyone get better at anything without running off on adventures and killing goblins for Improvement Rolls.

This depends completely on the GM and players deciding how long is available in downtime. Downtime is usually abstracted because game sessions are about the wild adventure, not the humdrum rest periods. The GM might have a specific period of downtime in mind structured by the needs of the campaign, but equally it might be up to the players saying 'we don't look for work for X days and go back to our routine lives'.

Downtime shouldn't be viewed just as a commodity for improvement though. Its an essential hiatus for rest, recuperation, earning a living, attending to the necessities of non-adventuring existence and so on. It need not be completely uneventful though, and the GMs Guide does have some guidance on things to do, over and above skill improvement, during downtime.

Hope this helps.

 

[Deleriad]

Hope this helps.

Hi Loz, thanks for the lengthy response with various useful ideas. I know where you're coming from about downtime but I've found the MRQ Improvement system extremely frustrating from two different angles.

Generational campaigns. My last RQ3 campaign was based on PC sorcerors being exiled to a distant land, having to set up a base, deal in local politics and then stumble across an ancient evil etc. Basically, the PC's might occasionally go a couple of years without an "adventure". This was part of the premise because the players needed time to develop their characters.

Heroic Fantasy. On the other hand I've run DragonLance under RQ3. The joy of that style of campaign is in seeing your characters improve dramatically in short periods of time and seeing the baddies you get to face scale up accordingly.

MRQ can't manage either of these styles RAW. In fact, the rulebook states that you don't get more Improvement rolls or HP until the end of a story and is quite explicit about this possibly spanning 10 sessions.

For example, I recently got an Iron Heroes scenario book free so thought I would see if I could use it. It's for 1st level PCs and intended to progress them through to 3rd level over 3-4 sessions. I simply can't do that under MRQ which means that my player characters will be just as capable of killing the big bad 5 minutes into the story as they will after, say, a month of hard work and experience. Of course I could give them magic items to make them better but that's a wrong-headed approach.

Finally, what does this mean: copied and pasted from RQ Core Rulebook pg 95 "there is usually at least one player in each group who likes to play a more academic character and will therefore be looking for enough down time to increase his skills."

Is this meant to mean that without downtime you can't increase skills? That there are ways to increase your skills in the downtime that didn't make it into the rulebook? Something else cryptic?

 

[gran_orco]

A couple of questions about this:
-Can a PC accumulate improvement rolls between adventures?
-Can a PC spend their IR and later research an ability, or must he spend IR to research or practice?

 

[soltakss]

Is this correct and, if so, what do you do with your character in lengthy "downtimes" if they run out of Improvement Rolls to spend?

It depends what you do.

A goldsmith may well spend his time making things from gold, generating experience points from doing this and putting them into Craft (Goldsmithing), Lore (Mineral) and so on. Healers spend time healing people and curing disease, thieves spend time relieving the rich of their surplus wealth and so on.

In those examples, down time might involve going away on a little holiday (adventure) before getting back to the nitty-gritty of earning a living.

But, for adventurers, downtime is the time between adventures. This might include resting, relaxation, performing cult duties, earning a living and so on. How much of it is roleplayed and how much is skipped over is a matter for the GM and Players.

Come to that, how does anyone get better at anything without running off on adventures and killing goblins for Improvement Rolls.

By carrying out a profession.

Not all improvement is continual. It comes in fits and bursts. You spend a year carrying out your normal profession and improve your skill gradually over the year, or you spend a month doing some very difficult tasks and gain several improvement rolls.

I'd give one Experience Point per month spent practising a profession. That way, you get some improvement potential in your profession without having to kill goblins.

 

[Loz]

I agree with Simon.

Largely its down to the needs of your campaign and good common sense. A 'story' doesn't have to be 10 sessions; a story is what you, as GM, decide it is. It could be a convenient gap between 'chapters' or after the denouement - it really is up to you.

The danger comes in trying to apply the RAW strictly. The rules are a guide; at the end of it all its up to the GM to decide when, where, how and for how long IRs and downtime last.

 

[gran_orco]

I understand this, but, again, can a PC accumulate improvement rolls between adventures?

 

[Loz]

I understand this, but, again, can a PC accumulate improvement rolls between adventures?

There's nothing to say that he can't, so again, its down to how the GM wants to run his campaign. Accumulating IRs is only going to postpone character development; it isn't going to inherently improve the chance or the size of the increase when the IRs are made, so I cannot see any immediate advantage in wanting to stockpile IRs, unless a character is intent on learning several new Advanced skills, which cost 2 IRs to gain the skill at the basic level.

 

[Deleriad]

The danger comes in trying to apply the RAW strictly. The rules are a guide; at the end of it all its up to the GM to decide when, where, how and for how long IRs and downtime last.

Thing is, this is a bit of a cop-out. Just to be precise, I actually agree with you about the generalities of how IRs should work. However the rules RAW are supposed to be complete and playable under normal circumstances, that's the whole point of a rulebook after all. The IR rules are incomplete (they omit how long it takes to learn a new advanced skill) and they are fully playable only under a pretty restricted set of circumstances. Like too much of the MRQ rule book you have to go off-piste far too early. I can appreciate that it's a 1st ed and there are always things that foul up and quirks that only come to light once a system gets into the outside world. Problem with MRQ for me, is that it far too often doesn't work under the most obvious of cases. If you have a text box about increasing skills in downtimes with academic characters but not even one suggestion about how to do that, it looks less than ideal.

For the record, because I hate only complaining, my house rule is:

You earn Improvement Rolls through experience, practise or research.
Experience refers to IRs gained from stories. You can spend them on any skill you already know or attempt to gain a characteristic point. With GM permission you can learn a new advanced skill but only if there was a story rationale. These IRs take, effectively, no time, because you have been learning them along.

Practice and Research, done during downtime. Same timings as in book. Costs money (and if you're allowing this form of improvement then players must also spend living money according to wealth and status tables). They have a max of 5 days a week free for sustainable P&R. At the end of the appropriate period of P&R you gain an Improvement Roll in that skill and use it immediately.

 

[RosenMcStern]

I cannot see any immediate advantage in wanting to stockpile IRs, unless a character is intent on learning several new Advanced skills, which cost 2 IRs to gain the skill at the basic level.

This is even more true of Characteristic improvements. If you cannot accumulate unused IRs between adventures, then you must burn up all of your experience bounty for one adventure in the attempt, something that most players will not like that much.

 

[RosenMcStern]

The IR rules are incomplete (they omit how long it takes to learn a new advanced skill) and they are fully playable only under a pretty restricted set of circumstances.

This was the case with RQ3, too: the time required to learn a new skill was not specified until the first, and only, errata came out.

Like too much of the MRQ rule book you have to go off-piste far too early. I can appreciate that it's a 1st ed and there are always things that foul up and quirks that only come to light once a system gets into the outside world. Problem with MRQ for me, is that it far too often doesn't work under the most obvious of cases.

An experienced GM will make it up on the spot. Time is not the essential problem here. And if your GM is not experienced enough, well, you could just play That Other Game, version 3.5.

You earn Improvement Rolls through experience, practise or research.
Experience refers to IRs gained from stories. You can spend them on any skill you already know or attempt to gain a characteristic point. With GM permission you can learn a new advanced skill but only if there was a story rationale. These IRs take, effectively, no time, because you have been learning them along.

Practice and Research, done during downtime. Same timings as in book. Costs money (and if you're allowing this form of improvement then players must also spend living money according to wealth and status tables). They have a max of 5 days a week free for sustainable P&R. At the end of the appropriate period of P&R you gain an Improvement Roll in that skill and use it immediately.

Agree 100% with you. The description given in Elric, however, seems to point out that this is the "official" reading of the rules. At least in the Young Kingdoms :wink:

 

[Loz]

Agree 100% with you. The description given in Elric, however, seems to point out that this is the "official" reading of the rules. At least in the Young Kingdoms Wink

I think that's an important distinction. Both Hawkmoon and Elric treat skill advancement differently to core RQ due to the nature of the respective sagas.

I also disagree that there's any cop out in repeating that the rules are there as a guide: that's precisely what they are. You're right to point out that there's a gap with regard to time taken for learning new Advanced skills, but I don't think there's any particular issue with not being overly prescriptive regarding the whole improvement process. MRQ differs significantly from previous versions in giving players a lot of freedom which skills they want to improve. Previous versions, and other versions of BRP, went down the skill-check route. There are arguments for an against both versions of course, and I don't want to start that kind of debate, but in general the GM has to decide and moderate character advancement according to his own style and preferences.

I've been running RQ in both Glorantha and Elric incarnations for well over a year now, and I haven't found any restrictive circumstances regarding character advancement. I'm sure our GMing styles differ, but I don't see how the IR rules are are fully playable only under a restricted set of circumstances.

 

[zozotroll]

Of the several problems I have had with the rules, IRs are not one of them. They work OK, if a little slow, but I know the fix for that.

As for not giveing the amount of time needed, thats not a cop out, that is self defense. If there was a specific time given, we as a group would howl, not all take the same amount of time. If each advanced skill had its own time, there would be gnashing of teeth that they got it all wrong.

Most RQ DMs greet that sort of thing with a loud "Horsepoop!" and change it anyway, so why even bother? RQers tend to be a cantankerous lot anyway, and atificial time limits are the sort of thing that seems to set them off.

 

[Loz]

Of the several problems I have had with the rules, IRs are not one of them. They work OK, if a little slow, but I know the fix for that.

As for not giveing the amount of time needed, thats not a cop out, that is self defense. If there was a specific time given, we as a group would howl, not all take the same amount of time. If each advanced skill had its own time, there would be gnashing of teeth that they got it all wrong.

Most RQ DMs greet that sort of thing with a loud "Horsepoop!" and change it anyway, so why even bother? RQers tend to be a cantankerous lot anyway, and atificial time limits are the sort of thing that seems to set them off.

But I think Deleriad was right to spot that some form of easily administered gap in how long Advanced skills take to develop from scratch exists, so I think there's a definite place for some kind of abstraction along the lines I suggested at the top of the post. Beyond that: GM fiat and common sense/campaign needs.

 

[Deleriad]

As for not giveing the amount of time needed, thats not a cop out, that is self defense. If there was a specific time given, we as a group would howl, not all take the same amount of time. If each advanced skill had its own time, there would be gnashing of teeth that they got it all wrong.

Most RQ DMs greet that sort of thing with a loud "Horsepoop!" and change it anyway, so why even bother? RQers tend to be a cantankerous lot anyway, and atificial time limits are the sort of thing that seems to set them off.

Ah well there are already times given for how long it takes to practise and research skills 1 day/10% and there hasn't been an outcry. GM's go and change to their own preferences but at least the rulebook gives you a default to build upon. It failed to give a default for learning advanced skills (I'd forgotten RQ3 made that mistake too) and failed to give a simple default procedure for how to improve skills without adventuring. They're not exactly deal-breakers just black-marks and really obvious things for errata.

There's also a really bad argument that I often hear which is that if you want "everything" written down then go play that other game. That's a straw man. All that MRQ needs to be able to do is to specify what the standard way is for handling the core requirements of the game are. They covered most of it when it came to improvement (skill increases, characteristics, HP and Legendary abilities), goofed on advanced skills and, I would argue, should have had a simple procedure for how to improve during downtime.* Then you can agree or disagree with the choices but at least they are there. Hopefully they will be in MRQII...**

*The misleading text box just makes things more confusing.
**Course then they'll do them in some way that really really irritates me just for karma...

 

[zozotroll]

At least RQM 2nd ed will be in the main compatible with all the earlier editions, unlike that other game where the newest edition will have not much more than a name in common with earlier sets.

 

[Snowedunder]

I've always read it as IRs are available as rewards at the end of each session and can be used instantly to improve skills.

Research and practice are always available during down time and the amount of each is only restricted by time and money.

Thus a wealthy character who never went on an advenutre could still become a master swordsman simply by spending all his time and money on training and mentors.

In the same way a professional adventurer who never sets foot in a city could become a master swordsman simply through using IRs and never "practice" or use a mentor.

Two extreme examples but helps illustrate the point.

 

[Deleriad]

I've always read it as IRs are available as rewards at the end of each session and can be used instantly to improve skills.

Research and practice are always available during down time and the amount of each is only restricted by time and money.

That was what I thought when I first read it. Not how they work though. That said, I do prefer to play them the way I thought they were.