Imperial Political Map

[ottarrus]

You know, it would be interesting to see a map of the Third Imperium with the noble fiefs marked on it.
You know, with the Counties and Baronies marked and perhaps color coded as to who owes fealty to whom. Some subsectors are nice clear... Mora and Rhylanor have a Subsector Duke who managed the high politics of region. Others are a real hodge-podge. Aramis/Spinward Marches doesn't have a Subsector Duke and both Rhylanor and Pretoria/Deneb have noble fiefs within its boundaries.
My point is that it's not all nice and neat like a chess board and it would be helpful to see the lines of influence on a map.

 

[Geir]

Behind the Claw has a sketchy version of that for Deneb's dukes. But sketchy, and really only partially executed (p. 152)

 

[Vormaerin]

I find the post GURPS Nobles effort to assign Imperial Nobles to planets and clusters of planets difficult to reconcile with the idea that planets are internally sovereign and the Imperium doesn't govern them directly. It seems like the more folks dial in on the nobles, the more you find said nobles actually being the government of planets.

Whether its Sticky in Agents of the Imperium or the Marquis of Aramis being the chief oligarch of Aramis. I used to think that the Aramis situation was a fluke, but more and more it becomes the norm.

It used to be said that Imperial government starts at the Subsector with the Dukes, but that's obviously not the case anymore.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I find the post GURPS Nobles effort to assign Imperial Nobles to planets and clusters of planets difficult to reconcile with the idea that planets are internally sovereign and the Imperium doesn't govern them directly. It seems like the more folks dial in on the nobles, the more you find said nobles actually being the government of planets.

Whether its Sticky in Agents of the Imperium or the Marquis of Aramis being the chief oligarch of Aramis. I used to think that the Aramis situation was a fluke, but more and more it becomes the norm.

It used to be said that Imperial government starts at the Subsector with the Dukes, but that's obviously not the case anymore.

I treat Imperial Nobles more like Imperial Envoys since they have no "official" authority on the worlds outside of fiefs and the Starports. There are exceptions of course, where the Imperial Noble is also the planetary ruler, but I am not sure if this is the exception or the rule anymore as it seems to have changed over the editions.

 

[Micky]

I find the post GURPS Nobles effort to assign Imperial Nobles to planets and clusters of planets difficult to reconcile with the idea that planets are internally sovereign and the Imperium doesn't govern them directly. It seems like the more folks dial in on the nobles, the more you find said nobles actually being the government of planets.

Whether its Sticky in Agents of the Imperium or the Marquis of Aramis being the chief oligarch of Aramis. I used to think that the Aramis situation was a fluke, but more and more it becomes the norm.

It used to be said that Imperial government starts at the Subsector with the Dukes, but that's obviously not the case anymore.

my impression of it is they are titles.. and you do get some tangible benefits with it. Holdings upon those worlds. The higher the title the more the bigger and the better.

but nobles aren't a part of sovereign planets day to day activities or governments.

Nobles serve as Imperial administrators, collecting taxes, interfacing with other Imperial agencies such as the navy and scouts, and making sure that the worlds of the Imperium abide by its laws

Not sure if I'm missing something that has hinted that they were. Hasn't it been established, as it was in the Third Imperium sourcebook, that they often have imperial responsibilities that also come with the title. At sub-sector, sector, perhaps even domain level. Usually with the five big Imperial ministries. It is just a title in regards to normal day to day life of the planets that are part of their noble writ.. but in times of crisis or war... the higher the rank the more worlds the Imperium is looking at you to fix or solve.. the greater the responsibilities that comes with all the goodies and benefits.

at the OP.. funny you mention that.. I was thinking of trying something like that. Next week I was planning on doing up revised maps (after hashing out all the differences between canon UWP's and those Travellermap has) of some sub-sectors I've written up. I'll try that and see what it looks like. Doesn't make it look too crazy or too busy. Especially if there are overlapping areas.

 

[NOLATrav]

IMTU Imperial Nobles at the planetary level are the Starport administrators and oversee the areas inside the extrality line. They can run things how they see fit, based on local conditions, law level and tech level. But their prime directive as it were is to facilitate and hopefully increase trade to their world, which forces them to have a friendly and supportive relationship with the locals - who might otherwise try to send goods through an ancillary port elsewhere on the planet or in the system.

These Nobles may be granted estates or fiefs, ranging from a compound covering a few blocks near the Starport to several acres in a resource extraction area to perhaps even the moon of a gas giant or some middling world a few orbits away. Again, based on local circumstances (and what feels most interesting to me).

All these planetary Nobles send regular reports to their Subsector Duke, who then gets the big picture view and likewise sends that to the Sector Duke. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work…

So while required by the nature of their work to interface directly with local governments and business leaders, the only real influence planetary Nobles have is over the Starport and Startown.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, my concept of Imperial Nobles is influenced more by Petrine Russia and the Table of Ranks. Most titles actually go with specific jobs, but there's honor nobles. Sometimes there's land fiefs, but often they are money fiefs (usually in the form of stocks). Children of nobles that don't get jobs are just "Lord/Lady". The Duke of Wiltshire's heir is just Lord of Wiltshire, unless they get their own title from some imperial job or reward. The next Duke of Regina is not necessarily Norris' personal heir. Though scheming to arrange that kind of thing is a popular aristocratic pasttime.

Starport directors, Ambassadors, flag officers, and the like are nobles. But the situation where the Imperial Noble is also a planetary ruler are exceedingly rare. Those jobs often have fiefs attached to them that are not inheritable in addition to whatever fiefs the noble got upon ennoblement (which are inheritable).

 

[MasterGwydion]

IMTU Imperial Nobles at the planetary level are the Starport administrators and oversee the areas inside the extrality line. They can run things how they see fit, based on local conditions, law level and tech level. But their prime directive as it were is to facilitate and hopefully increase trade to their world, which forces them to have a friendly and supportive relationship with the locals - who might otherwise try to send goods through an ancillary port elsewhere on the planet or in the system.

These Nobles may be granted estates or fiefs, ranging from a compound covering a few blocks near the Starport to several acres in a resource extraction area to perhaps even the moon of a gas giant or some middling world a few orbits away. Again, based on local circumstances (and what feels most interesting to me).

All these planetary Nobles send regular reports to their Subsector Duke, who then gets the big picture view and likewise sends that to the Sector Duke. At least that’s how it’s supposed to work…

So while required by the nature of their work to interface directly with local governments and business leaders, the only real influence planetary Nobles have is over the Starport and Startown.

So, what does the SPA do in your universe? All Starport Governors are SPA employees, not nobles.

"THE SPA BOARD The highest level of starport administration is the Board of Directors-General(usually just “the board”), based on Capital. Ten of the directorates-general share the same name as the 10 standard starport departments (see p. 19), and the sector Facilities departments. An Office of the Inspector-General (see below) makes up the 12th and final directorate. The board chairman holds a tie-breaking vote over the 12 board members, and answers directly to the emperor. Traditionally, the emperor also appoints a new SPA chairman as a non-hereditary Imperial noble, usually a duke. He bypasses this honor if the incoming chairman already is a hereditary noble, but this circumstance has occurred only once. (Since the SPA certainly is not one of the Imperial services toward which the nobility gravitate, the vast majority of employees are of common origin.)"

 

[ottarrus]

I also use GT: Nobles as the guidebook for that level of government IMTU. It's one of two GT books that I use a lot, the other being GT Ground Forces.

But even Mongoose sources have counties that cover worlds in multiple subsectors, subsectors without a duke, entire sectors without dukes, etc. Every edition of Traveller has some funky 'that doesn't make much sense' facts about nobles and senior Imperial leadership that kinda needs to be sorted out.

That doesn't mean I want to invest nobles with the power of 'life and limb and earthly worship'. Nobles are distant leaders for a reason, given the communication lags in Charted Space. But what I'd like to see is a deeper explanation of a noble's responsibilities to the worlds they represent. Current canon says Imperial nobles are not utterly defanged like 'Downton Abbey' nor are they Technologically Elevated Dictators nor are they all corpo weasels. They wield soft power that is every bit as harsh as an Imperial intervention.

Both 'Behind the Claw' and 'The Third Imperium' books hint at this kind of power in Deneb and Core sectors respectively and I'd kind of like to see that explored.

 

[NOLATrav]

So, what does the SPA do in your universe? All Starport Governors are SPA employees, not nobles.

"THE SPA BOARD The highest level of starport administration is the Board of Directors-General(usually just “the board”), based on Capital. Ten of the directorates-general share the same name as the 10 standard starport departments (see p. 19), and the sector Facilities departments. An Office of the Inspector-General (see below) makes up the 12th and final directorate. The board chairman holds a tie-breaking vote over the 12 board members, and answers directly to the emperor. Traditionally, the emperor also appoints a new SPA chairman as a non-hereditary Imperial noble, usually a duke. He bypasses this honor if the incoming chairman already is a hereditary noble, but this circumstance has occurred only once. (Since the SPA certainly is not one of the Imperial services toward which the nobility gravitate, the vast majority of employees are of common origin.)"

Well, the Nobles I mentioned above are the SPA IMTU, along with their staff and hirelings and the locals required to keep starport operations up and running. I don't really pay attention to the Capital/Core/Emperor-adjacent goings-on as I prefer a frontier game. And quite frankly, so do the Nobles

 

[Vormaerin]

There's a JTAS article on the SPA from long ago that pre-dates the downward expansion of the Imperial Nobility to actually having roles of importance below Subsector Duke. So that article assumes the SPA is not run by nobles, because it is a local level operation. And most subsequent treatments of the SPA use that as its basis.

IMHO, if it were written post Nobles, it likely would have put more lesser nobles in important positions, the way we do.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have read several of the Starport books from various editions. In none of them do nobles have anything to do with the Starports, so in MTU, nobles have nothing to do with the starports. Best I can tell, nobles are just rich wankers who throw their money and influence around, but otherwise do very little until you get to the Ducal-level anyhow. That is for the Landed Hereditary Nobles. The honor nobles and such get non-hereditary title based on job or as a reward for service that doesn't warrant being "landed". Basically, nobles sit in judgment in Imperial Courts and vote in the Moot. That kind of seems to be all they do. What edition was the Nobles book?

 

[Condottiere]

They could sit on the local supervisor's board.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They could sit on the local supervisor's board.

According to the material as written that I have found, yes, but this is incredibly rare.

 

[Peleliu]

IMTU noble fiefs are usually much smaller than listed in most Traveller sources. They function essentially as residential estates. A noble's base income does not typically derive from direct tax revenues and resource extraction of an estate, but is instead a fixed (but generous) subsidy based on the overall economic output of the world they are assigned. This subsidy comes directly through the Imperial Treasury.

Nobles assigned to worlds that do not generate a sufficient economic output still receive a base subsidy that ensures their personal wealth and status is above most if not all indigenous residents. A knight assigned to a low population low tech world may still be quite poor and unable to afford the latest model ground car, but compared to his wards living in grass huts and subsisting on hunting and gathering, he would be quite the big man.

I also confine the authority of all nobles to the individual systems they are meant to oversee, except for subsector and sector dukes, who have oversight of all systems/sectors under their respective assignments.

 

[Condottiere]

Consols (originally short for consolidated annuities, but subsequently taken to mean consolidated stock) were government debt issues in the form of perpetual bonds, redeemable at the option of the government. The first British consols were issued by the Bank of England in 1751.[1] They have now been fully redeemed.

 

[NOLATrav]

I have read several of the Starport books from various editions. In none of them do nobles have anything to do with the Starports, so in MTU, nobles have nothing to do with the starports.

Cool. In mine they do, they are essentially the colonial governors. It makes more sense to have them do a little work for their titles, to me, than to have a bunch of useless fops running around.

 

[ottarrus]

In regards to the SPA and nobles, GT Noble lists the Chairman of the Board of Directors-General, Starport Authority [that is, the Imperial level political head of the agency], as being a County position. Sector Directors, SPA, and Members of the Board of Directors-General are Baronial positions. [GT: Nobles, table on pg 71]
It should be noted that the Imperium prefers to assign nobles to vacant governmental positions instead of creating a new Patent of Nobility every time a job comes open. The logic of this being that vacancies are temporary, but a new Patent is nigh-on permanent.
My read on nobles in the SPA is that the Chairman of the Board will probably be political choice with advisors and members of the Board being professionals to 'guide' the Chairman. Sector Directors are most likely the senior level of actual working professionals inasmuch as the Emperor can bestow honor baronies to such people, a Patent good for their lifetime with the Patent possibly being made permanent for their heirs if they do the job well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

In regards to the SPA and nobles, GT Noble lists the Chairman of the Board of Directors-General, Starport Authority [that is, the Imperial level political head of the agency], as being a County position. Sector Directors, SPA, and Members of the Board of Directors-General are Baronial positions. [GT: Nobles, table on pg 71]
It should be noted that the Imperium prefers to assign nobles to vacant governmental positions instead of creating a new Patent of Nobility every time a job comes open. The logic of this being that vacancies are temporary, but a new Patent is nigh-on permanent.
My read on nobles in the SPA is that the Chairman of the Board will probably be political choice with advisors and members of the Board being professionals to 'guide' the Chairman. Sector Directors are most likely the senior level of actual working professionals inasmuch as the Emperor can bestow honor baronies to such people, a Patent good for their lifetime with the Patent possibly being made permanent for their heirs if they do the job well.

Not surprising they contradict since one of the sources is GURPS Starports and GURPS is, at best, an alternative universe 3I.