IH Feat Mastery & Conan

Damien

Mongoose
Question for those of you familiar with Malhavoc's Iron Heroes.

Has anyone added (or considered adding) the concept of feat masteries to the Conan rules? I haven't had a lot of time to consider it, myself, but it is something that has bounced around in my head once or twice and I'd like to take a bit just before the start of my next Conan game (which is set to start in two weeks or so).

I think the concept of feat masteries is extremely solid. Feats are one of the nicer aspects of d20, and most people I know agree that you get so few of them, in comparison to how many are out there that are quite excellent. Now, I haven't gotten to use feat masteries all that much; I only have so much time that I can spend gaming, and I already play Conan and CODA (LotR RPG) regularly, so I've only gotten to play a few sessions of IH.

That said, I really do like the way feat masteries work, and the benefits they can impart. The -only- issue I see (and I'm looking for other interpretations, so if you see more issues than this, please point them out) is that increasing the number of feats increases the power of characters.


I don't see this as too much of a problem, however. Humans make up the majority of villains in Conan anyway, so they'll have access to the same things as the Player Characters. When monsters occur, a DM often has to really consider the party's actual members, rather than level, when deciding what's going to be a proper challenge anyway. Adding a few more feats and new abilities to each character over the course of 20 levels isn't likely to hugely impact that.


However, in order to make feat masteries useful, players need access to more feats. How many is fun, without being far too powerful, is really the question. I'm not convinced that characters under the standard rules get enough feats for feat masteries to be useful or fun.


Now, I'm sure at least one of you is thinking "what do you hope to accomplish?" Two things.

1.) Adding feats adds options and abilities. And that's fun. Shield feats in IH, for instance, would fit very well into Conan, not only for knights, but for the Kushite warriors, who clearly rely very much on shields. Everyone likes being slightly more effective and having nifty abilities.

I'm not suggesting characters need to become uber-powerful, but I really don't think an extra +3 parry bonus from shields over the course of 10-20 levels is really game-breaking.


2.) Versatility. Various Charisma- and Intelligence-based feats can be turned into masteries, which drastically increases the likelihood that anyone will bother with them. I -love- to see warrior-types investing in things like this, but without more access to feats, and interesting choices, most fighter-types don't bother too much with 'wasting' a feat on things of that nature. I think adding feat masteries will encourage more versatility in characters. Allow them to branch out some.



Thoughts?
 
2) Versatility...


I agree with you on this point. There are quite a few Feats that I feel don't get used simple because they aren't cost effective. It's nice to pick feats to follow a character's story or concept, but when it comes down to it, you have to pick ones that give you the biggest bang for your buck.
 
IH has lots of good stuff for a Conan game. The only thing I would probably not want to include is the classes or the magic system.

Conan's versions of these are great and probably shouldn't be messed with, but the feats, new skill uses, combat zones, combat challenges, stunts, etc. are all very easy to import into Conan.

I'm doing this with my campaign. Using the Conan rules, but I'm plugging in Combat Challenges this week. Once the group gets a grasp of those, we'll import the new skill uses next week, and then the stunts will probably be last, as they are the most complex.

Its a bit too late to import the feats as my group is already 3rd level and this would result in a total re-write of all the characters. Which I don't want :)
 
Yeah, definitely not using the IH classes or magic system (the latter being, admittedly, very poor). I agree that things like combat zones and challenges are great. But my first interest is in Feat Mastery. From there I'll put in other things. My players are already familiar with IH, so importing things shouldn't be an issue in that regard.


Here's what I was thinking for Masteries. First, I'm going to remove the 'Best' progression (the one that starts at 2 and goes up by 1 every other level). I just don't think it's necessary, and having that many different progressions means trying to figure out who should get what. Removing one of the progressions makes it easier. And here's what I was thinking in concerns to which classes would have what mastery progressions:


Soldier
Armour - Good
Power - Average
Other - Poor

Noble
Social - Good
Tactics - Average
Other - Poor

Scholar
Lore - Good
Social - Average
Other - Poor

Thief
Finesse - Good
Defense - Average
Other - Poor

Nomad
Projectile - Good
Power - Average
Other - Poor

Barbarian
Power - Good
Defense - Average
Other - Poor

Pirate
Defense - Good
Finesse - Average
Other - Poor

Borderer
Two Weapon
Defense - Good
Finesse - Average
Other - Poor
Archery
Projectile - Good
Defense - Average
Other - Poor

I'm going to start working on converting some feats into feat masteries, and importing other feats from IH as best I can. I want to try to get this done so I can use it in my upcoming game.
 
I'd be interested to see your conversions Damien. I tried out Combat Challenges last night and they seemed to work great. I think one of my PC's used one once, but they liked having them available if a situation came up where one would be useful.

I would probably just remove the mastery ratings on the feats if I were you, and convert all the feats into just regular feats. I believe the IH book uses a base attack bonus prerequisite for most of the feats in place of their mastery ratings.
 
I don't know Iron Heroes all that well; what is the idea behind feat masteries? My guess is that it is to restrict characters from going deeply into the feat trees, getting the more powerful feats too quickly. So a powerful feat would be restricted not only because you have to have all its prerequisites, but also because you have to be of a certain level (depending on your class and the type of feat).
Is that correct?
 
I don't know Iron Heroes all that well; what is the idea behind feat masteries? My guess is that it is to restrict characters from going deeply into the feat trees, getting the more powerful feats too quickly. So a powerful feat would be restricted not only because you have to have all its prerequisites, but also because you have to be of a certain level (depending on your class and the type of feat).

You're partially correct. Feat Masteries actually don't have prerequisites (except for really obvious ones - like Shield Proficiency for Shield Mastery feats). The idea of Feat Masteries is to take one feat and give it a bunch of tiers, each 'tier' costing you a feat. And each tier only available if you both have the -base- feat, and have the proper ranking in that mastery.

I'm pretty craptacular at explaining things, so here's what the designer had to say:

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?designdiary_mmearls_14



I would probably just remove the mastery ratings on the feats if I were you, and convert all the feats into just regular feats. I believe the IH book uses a base attack bonus prerequisite for most of the feats in place of their mastery ratings.

I'm not sure what you mean. IH doesn't use BAB prerequisites. I mean, why would Mearls create the mastery rating system if he was going to just ignore it anyway?

That said, I like the way the feat masteries work - the tier system appeals to me and it's actually a lot cleaner than just writing up a ton of new feats and requirements for them, when I can just write tiers into the same feat and require a mastery rating for them, determined by class and level. It's very simple that way.

I wrote up the Conanized (but not all that different) versions of the three armour feats earlier. Lemme know what you think.

((Keep in mind that I'm not worried about making sure each mastery has any particular number of tiers, which wasn't a concern to Mike Mearls, either. Also, for those that don't know, the number that follows the words 'Expanded Mastery' refers to what Mastery Rating you need to qualify to take that tier of the feat.))

I have a list of all the feats I have access to in the Conan system. As I go I'll cross off any of the ones that are drawn into feat masteries (or are close to abilities in the feat masteries). This will help avoid confusion as I can just give the list to my players so they'll know what normal feats are still present and unchanged.



Armour Mastery [Armour]
Base Mastery: 1
Benefit: Whenever you wear armour, you gain one point more Damage Reduction. This is in total, not per piece of armour worn.
Expanded Mastery 2: Whenever an opponent scores a critical threat against you, there is a flat 25% chance that the attack is not a critical hit. Make this check before rolling to confirm or applying any rules that affect the critical threat.
Expanded Mastery 4: You are far more comfortable in armour than most. Reduce your armour's check penalty by 2 and increase its maximum Dexterity by 1.
Expanded Mastery 6: You have learned how to more accurately move in your armour, through balance and strength training. Treat your armour as one category lighter for purposes of movement.
Expanded Mastery 8: When wearing armour, your total damage reduction derived from your armour is increased by an additional 1 point.
Expanded Mastery 9: Whenever an opponent scores a critical threat against you, there is a flat 50% chance that the attack is not a critical hit. Make this check before rolling to confirm or applying any rules that affect the critical threat.


Shield Mastery [Armour]
Base Mastery: 1
Prerequisite: Must be proficient with shield used.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your Parry Defense whenever you are using a shield of any kind. This (as well as Expanded Mastery 4) includes any. . human. . shields you may be using, if you so wish.
Expanded Mastery 3: Determine your Defense scores without a shield. If an attacker misses you, but would have hit you if you did not have your shield, then the attacker strikes your shield. When this happens, you may entangle his weapon or push it out of line with your shield, leaving him vulnerable. You gain a +1 bonus to attacks against this opponent until the end of your next action.
Expanded Mastery 5: Your Parry Defense when using a shield increases by an additional +1.
Expanded Mastery 7: Follow the calculations in Expanded Mastery 3. If an opponent misses you, but would have hit you if you did not have your shield, he strikes your shield. Each time this happens he provokes an attack of opportunity from you.


Improved Shield Bash [Armour]
Base Mastery: 1
Prerequisite: Proficiency with shield used.
Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still use the shield to Parry, retaining its full bonus. You also retain the shield's full bonus to your base Defense, if any.
Expanded Mastery 3: You may wear your shield, if a large or small shield, on your back, as other warriors do when the shield is not in use. However, you retain half (rounded down) of the shield's bonus to your base Defense (if any) when wearing the shield in this way.
Expanded Mastery 5: When you use the full attack action, you may gain a second attack with your shield at a -5 penalty. You may gain this additional attack even if engaging in Two-Weapon Fighting.
Expanded Mastery 7: Your attacks with a shield are more damaging. If using a buckler, increase the damage it deals to 1d8. Increase the damage dealt by a small or large shield to 1d6.
 
Damien, I like this mastery idea and would like to have whatever document that you produce on this. But I wonder one thing, in Armour Mastery, you have left out Expanded 3, 5 & 7, and a few from the other two as well. Should they be renamed or does it serve some kind of purpose, like, that is the minimum level a character must have to pick it?
 
Damien said:
Feat Masteries actually don't have prerequisites (except for really obvious ones - like Shield Proficiency for Shield Mastery feats). The idea of Feat Masteries is to take one feat and give it a bunch of tiers, each 'tier' costing you a feat. And each tier only available if you both have the -base- feat, and have the proper ranking in that mastery.
Oh, I see!
I was under the impression that you had to take the Expanded Masteries in order, so that the lower ones would be prerequisites for the higher ones. Got it now, thanks for clearing that up. :)

In that case, I have another question concerning stacking of the feats. For example, these two:
Expanded Mastery 2: Whenever an opponent scores a critical threat against you, there is a flat 25% chance that the attack is not a critical hit. Make this check before rolling to confirm or applying any rules that affect the critical threat.
Expanded Mastery 9: Whenever an opponent scores a critical threat against you, there is a flat 50% chance that the attack is not a critical hit. Make this check before rolling to confirm or applying any rules that affect the critical threat.
Do these two stack in any way? Or is EM2 made totally superfluous if you also get EM9 later on?
 
Damien, I like this mastery idea and would like to have whatever document that you produce on this.

Glad you're interested. I'll be posting the various feat masteries as I tailor them to this system, and I can send you the final document when it's all finished, as you please.


But I wonder one thing, in Armour Mastery, you have left out Expanded 3, 5 & 7, and a few from the other two as well. Should they be renamed or does it serve some kind of purpose, like, that is the minimum level a character must have to pick it?

Exactly. The number following the words 'Expanded Mastery' (such as "3") is not the number of the tier, but rather the rank of mastery in that kind of feat that you need to have in order to choose that tier.

For instance, if a Soldier has a good progression in Armour feats, that means his Mastery Rank in Armour feats starts at 1 and rises by 1 every other level (capping out at 9, however). So he'd be able to take the second Shield Mastery tier (each tier costs a feat, of course) at 5th level, because that's when his Mastery Rank in Armour feats reaches 3, the requirement for the second Expanded Mastery of Shield Mastery.

Does that explain it, or am I being confusing? I have a terrible way with explaining things.


Do these two stack in any way? Or is EM2 made totally superfluous if you also get EM9 later on?

Correct, EM2 would be totally superfluous if you take EM9. The reason they are both there, of course, is that you can take EM2 at a much lower level and enjoy its benefits until you're finally able to take EM9 (which only a straight Soldier can qualify for, and only upon reaching 17th level, when his Armour mastery rank rises to 9).


Hopefully I'll be working on more feats today. I'm thinking that the various 'Sacrifice' feats for Scholars will make a good Feat Mastery tree.
 
You may want to revise the feat masteries to give a "Best" progression to at least one class for each mastery type, otherwise, certain expanded masteries will never be attainable to any class, ever.

Every mastery has at least one feat tree that goes up to 10. IH incorporated this into their class design by using the Weapon Master class that could pick 2 masteries and go up to 10 in at least 1 of them.

So if you are going to give 3 masteries to each class, I'd just bump up the Good to Best, the Average to Good, and the Worst to Average, or something like that.
 
You may want to revise the feat masteries to give a "Best" progression to at least one class for each mastery type, otherwise, certain expanded masteries will never be attainable to any class, ever.

Untrue. The 'Good' progression caps at 9. That's exactly the highest mastery any feat will have, and therefore the 'Best' progression is not only not necessary, but I think for a Conan game it's too good.

Simply put, I am revising the Masteries and redesigning them to fit into the game. If I were importing them directly, you'd be absolutely right. But since I'm not - it's not a concern.


Every mastery has at least one feat tree that goes up to 10.

And many of their abilities are either repeats, or won't/can't/aren't-going-to function in Conan. As I said above a moment ago - my revisions will take this into account and the highest tier will be 9. I'm removing a lot of the extra stuff. Check out my revision on the Armour Mastery for an example, or Shield Mastery.

I imagine -most- feat masteries won't even get to 9, but that's where they'll cap out if they do.



So if you are going to give 3 masteries to each class, I'd just bump up the Good to Best, the Average to Good, and the Worst to Average, or something like that.

I just think that's too good - and that's why I removed the Best progression. But I think this post should address your concerns to that, yeah? Without a Mastery of 10 in any of the feats, the Best progression isn't necessary.




I've skimped on this, I know, been kind of busy with other things. Hopefully I'll have something new to post within a few days. I'm planning on working on the various Lore masteries. I like the idea of a Sacrifice Mastery for Scholars. I'll see what I can cook up soon.
 
Ok, well since you're doing that then I guess it still works.

I'm debating on plugging this into my Conan game too, so if you want I can read through your document when you get it done and offer my 2 cents.

Plus I'd like a copy just so I don't have to do all the work :)

I'm using a lot of content from IH in my Conan game and the players love it.
 
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