If spacecraft/smallcraft piloting is INT... then why do:

[Nerhesi]

Pretty much every career from core rulebook to high guard to zhodani have the qualifications/survival/advancements some combination of dex and edu?

Just need a couple of ideas thrown at me as to why dex is so important if it is pretty much agreed that space piloting is INT not Dex.

Or should we just treat space piloting as space gunnery (dex or int, PCs choice)

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Just need a couple of ideas thrown at me as to why dex is so important if it is pretty much agreed that space piloting is INT not Dex.

I never agreed to that.

 

[Nerhesi]

Just need a couple of ideas thrown at me as to why dex is so important if it is pretty much agreed that space piloting is INT not Dex.

I never agreed to that.

Well then hold up! Everyone stop playing MtG right now! We have a dissenter!

I actually always played it as Gunnery -INT or DEX - you're smart or quick enough. I only just recently looked up a few old posts both here and on rpg.net and it seems that the vast majority was in agreement that for spacecombat at least, you're not pulling fast and hard on sticks or using fine motor/eye-hand coordination.

What do you use as a link characteristic (for space ops)?

 

[F33D]

Or should we just treat space piloting as space gunnery (dex or int, PCs choice)

Dex really has nothing to do with the skill of turret gunner. (see how 5" guns are handled on current warships)

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Just need a couple of ideas thrown at me as to why dex is so important if it is pretty much agreed that space piloting is INT not Dex.

I never agreed to that.

Well then hold up! Everyone stop playing MtG right now! We have a dissenter!

I actually always played it as Gunnery -INT or DEX - you're smart or quick enough. I only just recently looked up a few old posts both here and on rpg.net and it seems that the vast majority was in agreement that for spacecombat at least, you're not pulling fast and hard on sticks or using fine motor/eye-hand coordination.

What do you use as a link characteristic (for space ops)?

Depends on the dashboard, HUD, controls the ship has. The players can decide what their ship will have, or I sometimes choose for them. There's more than DEX or INT that can come into play when piloting, or attempting to piloting.

 

[GypsyComet]

If you are flying that launch NOE or through a debris field you might find DEX is important, but if you have time to set up travel and landing sequences, or trying to figure out why your ride is suddenly not acting right, INT will come in handy. The skills aren't rigidly attached to characteristics; situational decisions are required.

 

[F33D]

If you are flying that launch NOE or through a debris field you might find DEX is important,

Even today (TL 7) advanced mil aircraft use the computer to fly NOE missions. By TL 12+ well...

 

[Mytholder]

Slightly dull answer: because if you follow that line of thought, then 90% of checks would be based off INT or EDU.

 

[locarno24]

Only in circumstances where things are going to plan. In which case - why are you making the players make checks anyway?

The thing is, 'oh [expletive]' moments are the point at which you should be making the players take skill checks - so whilst DEX checks for piloting may only represent 0.1% of pilot manouvres, they will represent a good >50% of the times the GM should actually be making you roll dice.

For example:

Landing at a starport is a Routine (+2) task for most ships taking 10–60 seconds.

Does NOT mean that starships flown by someone with pilot/0 crash every one in three landings they attempt. That would be blatantly ridiculous. But that's the base difficulty to use when something else is making the landing difficult or dangerous (like a storm, or unresponsive controls, or a really, really angry aslan with a particle beam turret).

Agree with GypsyComet. You can use whatever you'd prefer. I tend to vary it based on circumstances.

INT is for "I chart a course, punch it into the computer and press go" where you're planning out a route.

DEX is for "holy crud holy crud the ship in the docking pattern ahead of us just exploded" where exactly what course you're changing to is less important than not being on the one you're currently on in a second's time.

EDU plus pilot might be used for figuring out the safe route in the first place.

Hell, END plus pilot might be used for keeping control of the ship under appropriately extreme circumstances (i.e. can you stay concious enough to land the ship).

There is virtually no skill that will only ever use a single stat.

Taking TFR* aircraft flight as an example, yes you'd fly a fighter at low level by computer for waypoint-to-waypoint transit but you'd go to manual once you reach a perceived threat zone. Once a hazard warning starts bleeping, the manouvres you're doing are most definintely DEX/END type checks, not INT.


*Terrain Following Radar

 

[Sigtrygg]

Slightly dull answer: because if you follow that line of thought, then 90% of checks would be based off INT or EDU.

That's what technology brings you

 

[rust]

Agree with GypsyComet. You can use whatever you'd prefer. I tend to vary it based on circumstances.

The same here. DEX is typically used for extreme evasive maneuvers,
INT or EDU usually for handling the craft's technology, END can beco-
me important when the craft is damaged, and so on. Just use what
makes the most sense in a specific situation.

As for the requirements for survival and advancement, I change them
depending on the setting. For example, the Colonist from the core ru-
lebook uses INT and END, while in my favourite setting a colonist uses
INT and EDU, because there a person's ability to understand and use
complex technology is far more important than a person's endurance.

 

[F33D]

Slightly dull answer: because if you follow that line of thought, then 90% of checks would be based off INT or EDU.

Not dull, accurate. Dex is still needed for mano-a-mano type skills in many cases. It also keeps the smarter players from saying WTF.

 

[F33D]

Taking TFR* aircraft flight as an example, yes you'd fly a fighter at low level by computer for waypoint-to-waypoint transit but you'd go to manual once you reach a perceived threat zone. Once a hazard warning starts bleeping, the manouvres you're doing are most definintely DEX/END type checks, not INT.

Nope. Not on the current, most modern strike aircraft. The upgraded F-111 being a good example.

 

[Nerhesi]

Taking TFR* aircraft flight as an example, yes you'd fly a fighter at low level by computer for waypoint-to-waypoint transit but you'd go to manual once you reach a perceived threat zone. Once a hazard warning starts bleeping, the manouvres you're doing are most definintely DEX/END type checks, not INT.

Nope. Not on the current, most modern strike aircraft. The upgraded F-111 being a good example.

No - the only difference between the act of controlling an F22 even and a P51 mustang is that you are not wrestling with mechanical or hydro-mechanical controls. All current 4th and 5th generation fighters that are fly-by-wire still have the maneuvers being controlled via an electronic flight stick/controls.

If this is the case for traveller (even holographic bridge controls would be similar), then it can definitely be simulated by DEX(reactions) and Piloting (Your knowledge of what maneuvers or evasive tactics and when to do it).

However, the question remains - is this something done within a tight window; thereby requiring fast reactions? or Is this something done with careful planning in a 6 minute window? Or is it a quick set of actions/reactions within a subset of that 6 minute space turn?

That is what, in my opinion, identify INT vs DEX for a skill test. Quick actions/reactions vs planning a strategy and executing it.

 

[dragoner]

The difference to me would be in velocity, at some certain point your rate of travel would be fast enough that motor skills would be too slow. However, one could use Int for a certain roll to say see ahead to avoid something that didn't seem to be registering on the computer.

 

[F33D]

No - the only difference between the act of controlling an F22 even and a P51 mustang is that you are not wrestling with mechanical or hydro-mechanical controls.

Incorrect. The F-22 has the ability to fly & fight itself. (not widely known at this time though). Also, if a pilot tried to manipulate the flight control surfaces directly via stick & rudder on an F-16, F-15, F-117, B-2, etc. they would crash. An F-18 pilot isn't even allowed to TOUCH any controls on take off.

 

[CosmicGamer]

EDU plus pilot might be used for figuring out the safe route

T However, one could use Int for a certain roll to say see ahead to avoid something that didn't seem to be registering on the computer.

To me, these and some other comments made regarding pilot seam to fall under astrogator.

This is a game and it is confined by the mechanics. One Skill DM and one Characteristic DM per individual task even though in some cases it may be multiple skills and/or multiple characteristics used in a given task. Often it's a matter of which would be used more, or even pick whichever one you want. Is boxing all strength or is it footwork, and fast hands? Melee combat allows the use of dex or str. Perhaps for some skills for some tasks it might be Int or Dex.

 

[F33D]

EDU plus pilot might be used for figuring out the safe route

T However, one could use Int for a certain roll to say see ahead to avoid something that didn't seem to be registering on the computer.

To me, these and some other comments made regarding pilot seam to fall under astrogator.

Not necessarily. A pilot would be taught to navigate in normal-space. Just like pilots today. Someone trained in astrogation has the additional training of plotting courses through J-space.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

This is a game and it is confined by the mechanics. One Skill DM and one Characteristic DM per individual task even though in some cases it may be multiple skills and/or multiple characteristics used in a given task. Often it's a matter of which would be used more, or even pick whichever one you want. Is boxing all strength or is it footwork, and fast hands? Melee combat allows the use of dex or str. Perhaps for some skills for some tasks it might be Int or Dex.

Role-players will use what fits their character. Roll players will use what has the most chance of winning. Role-players will try skills they don't even have, because some things in life are just hard. Roll players will treat skills they don't have as betting odds and luck rolls.

If a player is focusing too much on which characteristics to use...

 

[dragoner]

EDU plus pilot might be used for figuring out the safe route

T However, one could use Int for a certain roll to say see ahead to avoid something that didn't seem to be registering on the computer.

To me, these and some other comments made regarding pilot seam to fall under astrogator.

This is a game and it is confined by the mechanics. One Skill DM and one Characteristic DM per individual task even though in some cases it may be multiple skills and/or multiple characteristics used in a given task. Often it's a matter of which would be used more, or even pick whichever one you want. Is boxing all strength or is it footwork, and fast hands? Melee combat allows the use of dex or str. Perhaps for some skills for some tasks it might be Int or Dex.

Maybe dex allows some qualitative ability to anticipate things, yes; but, on a general basis I use int. Once again though, whatever flavor works for you, you should use. For me it is just my engineer's OCD demanding I justify things.