Idea in progress : Scout Interceptor/Pirate chaser

[Condottiere]

How stealthy can you be, if you have to land on a planet to deliver the goods?

I don't think you can run a blockade in Traveller, though you might be able to make aerospace drops.

 

[Reynard]

I'm sure I've seen other write ups elsewhere over 40 years but Sector Fleet has a good article concerning the interrelation of local forces and Imperial forces in a system. It's not a wall. Local forces can pursue or investigate incidents around the various worlds and along 'transit corridors' and 'shared responsibility zones' between worlds which are considered the sum of local control. There is absolutely no issue with local and Imperial forces teaming when needed and I stress when needed. That said, there's no reason cutters and local SDBs aren't common enough sights travelling to and from worlds, gas giants and planetoid belts where there could be Imperial patrol corvette flights showing the flag when necessary. Separation of overall responsibility is efficiency. A system's starport is what ties it together as everyone shares a single resource.

 

[phavoc]

I'm sure I've seen other write ups elsewhere over 40 years but Sector Fleet has a good article concerning the interrelation of local forces and Imperial forces in a system. It's not a wall. Local forces can pursue or investigate incidents around the various worlds and along 'transit corridors' and 'shared responsibility zones' between worlds which are considered the sum of local control. There is absolutely no issue with local and Imperial forces teaming when needed and I stress when needed. That said, there's no reason cutters and local SDBs aren't common enough sights travelling to and from worlds, gas giants and planetoid belts where there could be Imperial patrol corvette flights showing the flag when necessary. Separation of overall responsibility is efficiency. A system's starport is what ties it together as everyone shares a single resource.

I will take another look at Sector Fleet.

I do think that there is a dearth of information and discussion regarding the other 99.9% of a start system that doesn't comprise it's single listed planet and the main Imperial starport. A large-population world is going to have multiple starports of equal size. There would be a few reasons to use the main downport and main highport, but certainly not everyone will flow through those two facilities. They would have to be ginormous to support an entire world, and quiet ineffecient. Look at how we have airports today, or ports. There are multiple major ones servicing a single nation, or in some instances, a single state.

 

[Condottiere]

Spaceports, though I can't recall where I read that.

 

[wbnc]

And there's the issue again. If ships are being specially built as smugger craft blazing around at top speeds, they're going to be beacons in the dark. Even fast water craft today tend to get noticed and rarely mistaken for a rich man's pleasure toy. Special built smuggling craft, by the nature of an interstellar community, are also saddled with the albatross of a jump drive which tends to blink brightly on reentry to normal space and reduce displacement significantly plus, unlike a nation's coastline, star systems have more limited 'beaching' opportunities. You will be forced to carry only small loads of high value cargo but waving your arms shouting "Over here!" gets it taken. I know this is Traveller and there's a bit of the hack & slash mentality but I don't believe contraband carriers are more willing to regularly have shoot-outs in all but the most desperate encounters. You watch the news today or watch a show like Border Wars and smugglers are more often a cowardly lot who put their hands up when shooting starts, player characters are the exception. As a matter of fact, Border Wars demonstrates smuggling is about being clever and 'how not to be seen'. Mrs. Smegma tries to get her goods through by not standing up. Smugglers use normal vehicles with extraordinary means of concealment within the frame of said vehicle or they plan to get around the carefully conceived surveillance network rather than bull rushing it. It's not always Fast and Furious: the Traveller Movie.

The vast majority of ships in Traveller are relatively economical and that means relatively slow. Any vessel not behaving normally, and ships will be classified for their components, will be very suspect. If a Free Trader moves like a sports coupe, they will be asked to stand down or else. If a ship of unknown configuration appears they will receive the same treatment and be inspected. If a Subsidized Merchant putters all the way to port with a power plant not glowing unusually then the smuggled goods at least reach the port.

On that note, I keep staring at the title of this thread and realize what we may have here. As I've said, we have an expensive and very specialized craft. That often means specialized mission profiles. Rather than a common pirate chaser, your ship is a rare Hunter-Killer. When an organization releases this hound, someone has attracted the wrong attention! This is the legendary somewhat mythical vehicle no one talks about too loudly. It's a bit like sending James Bond out to get you and he never goes after small fish.

Smugglers have one tactic I think it's called..."All of the above" in the US we have a sport created by smugglers trying to see who had the fastest car. the cigarette boat of today was the "rum runner" and "cocaine boat" of the previous decades. the trick with a fast car, or fast ship is to use it sparingly. drive like you are just another small time Traveller, then if you HAVE to use every Newton you can. They can only arrest you for smuggling if they catch you with the goods.

the ship I was designing isn't really meant for smuggler chasing it seems to be the aspect of the design that has fired up the most conversation. That role would be a secondary purpose during peacetime, or the role of a surplus, or stripped down civilian version.

A system buying twenty SDBs is likely going to buy them stock, and negotiate a bulk purchase discount. Then upgrade them as they have the time and funds.

same for a commercial shipping firm. They'll upgrade, downgrade,and alter the stock ships as they need to, or as business situations allow them to pay for upgrades.

No, not really. Or at least that doesn't follow current reality. Today you see smaller navies purchasing warships second hand and those ships retain their equipment as much as possible. The exceptions being relatively isolated gear change outs due to age or whatnot. The reason someone buys them that way is because they can't build them on their own (or it's simply cheaper to purchase someone's paid off SDB's, do some minor repairs and put them into mainline service in your secondary or tertiary star-system).

a ship like the one I am working on is a special purpose, special purchase ship...built to the upper end of the scale for buyers who need that particular type of ship. Military forces tend to be limited in their purchases by political and cost per program rather than a ship by ship basis. If a force needs cruisers they may not be able to afford a ship that is cutting edge/perfectly optimized.....even the Imperium has bean counters, and Bureaucrats/politicians who want to shave money away from one program to spend on their own pet project.

So Canon ships would tend to be the baseline, not the upper, or lower end of he scale....or at least that's my take on it.

Yah, I agree your's would be on the upper-end of the scale. To me it's built more along the lines of a warship instead of a civilian ship modified for police duties. Nothing wrong with that, as we saw in Ferguson with the cops deploying armored cars with LMG's on top. Big question comes down to what level of militarization would a planetary police force have in the future. Fortunately it would be all over the board due to the vagaries of planetary governments, so you pretty much have a free hand in designing and deploying whatever you so choose.

To me canonical ships represent average vessels for their type and class - unless they are specifically designed for a purpose. They would be what I judge my ship and any other ship by. That's how I could say "gee, this is a hunk of junk", or "gee, this is a REALLY FAST hunk of junk that can do the kessel run in 12 parsecs" - though for the latter I would put in some reasons WHY speed = distance... unlike certain movie producers... thank goodness for books!

And there's the issue again. If ships are being specially built as smugger craft blazing around at top speeds, they're going to be beacons in the dark. Even fast water craft today tend to get noticed and rarely mistaken for a rich man's pleasure toy. Special built smuggling craft, by the nature of an interstellar community, are also saddled with the albatross of a jump drive which tends to blink brightly on reentry to normal space and reduce displacement significantly plus, unlike a nation's coastline, star systems have more limited 'beaching' opportunities.....

I very much agree with this! Every criminal and smuggler knows they can't fight "the man". No matter how fast your little smuggling ship is, it can't outrun radio's or military attack craft (it may get away a few times, but once it's known and identified, it's lifespan will be remarkably much shorter). Traveller has never really delved terribly deep into the relationship between the cops and the military. Since technically the 100D limit is where the sphere of ownership ends for a planet, the Imperium is responsible for navigation and safety beyond that. With the sheer volume we are talking here I don't see any Imperial ship stopping a planetary patrol craft from chasing someone they believe has broken their law beyond the 100D limit. So long as overall Imperial law was being followed I wouldn't see them blinking an eye, if not trying to help the local authorities.

Seems like an interesting area to see some write-up and such eh? Maybe a few articles in Freelance Traveller? Buehler? Buehler??

Ship building and purchase:
The big difference is that the scale of Traveller may cause a shift in patterns. The US, Russia, and china...well (China has the population of a pretty major World on it' own) are the equivalent of a backwater world. at their height They buy one or two ships a year, and that's it..Unless they are at war and then they push ships out as fast as they can build them at which point you get ships that are designed for mass production.

But ship yards that supply a sector of the Imperium have to build ships at rates that approach true mas production. a process that would more resemble the production of cargo jets. Boeing and Airbus build standard models that are refitted aftermarket and sold in lots to the big airfreight outfits. DHL, FEDex, and others buy ore airplanes than most countries. They buy in bulk lots, and negotiate deals for the best price.

And the base design is a military design, re purposed during peace time as a security vessel. In case of war any of the vessels assigned to assist customs enforcement or hunt pirate/smuggler would be back to their intended purposes. Any civil or government versions would be designed more for cost than raw ability, loosing their stealth and emission absorption gear, and more than likely jump drives, to cut cost to something a local system could afford. same hull, same M-drives, fewer bells and whistles. and still fairy rare as I envision it.

Canon Ships:
I thin we actually agree on that...Just a slight difference in the way we express ourselves...

And let us remember Back when a certain script writer used parsec, it was the dim and mist days before very geek and their long suffering girl/boyfriend knew what a parsec was I only knew because my Science teacher was a geek and mentioned it in class.

and as for fas ships, being a sore thumb..only if they are used carelessly. a good smuggler would slip in slip out unsuspected. either transferring goods to a smaller in system shuttle or avoiding inspection by some other means. Using their big bad drives only as needed to avoid being pinched with the goods on board. Like I may have mentioned before rum runner and moonshiners used thier speed to avoid being cuaght with the goods only. most of the time they drove/sailed like they were on a Sunday drive.

that big drive is only going to spike if you shove the throttles to the firewall, if you made a short hop like a regular trader then your output is going to be the same as a regular trader....and then it's a case of the cat being out of the bag already. Once they get away a paint job, a new transponder, and a set of papers fro some friendly source and they are back in business.

as for profit. Assuming there are similar goods, a few displacement tons of say Aldebaran Whsitleblort might go for Mcr on the black market. a few displacement tons of explosives, and small arms to suppl the local insurgents and criminals would be just as valuable. The higher the law level the higher the profit due to the risks of being caught. a carload of Canadian whiskey was cheap on the Canadian side of the border. It was worth a lot more on the American side. In the 8s you could by a boatload of marijuana/cocaine cheap in the Caribbean/South America and sell it for millions in the US.

At the source the goods are not economical, the scarcity, risk and demand at the destintion is what makes the trip worth it.

Every name's an alias
In case somebody squeals
It's the lure of easy money
It's got a very strong appeal

How stealthy can you be, if you have to land on a planet to deliver the goods?

I don't think you can run a blockade in Traveller, though you might be able to make aerospace drops.

 

[Anonymous]

And there's the issue again. If ships are being specially built as smugger craft blazing around at top speeds, they're going to be beacons in the dark. Even fast water craft today tend to get noticed and rarely mistaken for a rich man's pleasure toy.

I'm not sure I believe that. Florida, USA is literally full of cigarette boats and you can't exactly stop every single one automatically. http://www.cigaretteracing.com/eng/category.php

For both political reasons, and for practical reasons. I remember the commander of the US 5th fleet saying they lack the ships to "solve" the piracy problem by blockading the Horn of Africa and I imagine the US Coastguard would say the same thing about Florida.

 

[Anonymous]

the ship I was designing isn't really meant for smuggler chasing it seems to be the aspect of the design that has fired up the most conversation. That role would be a secondary purpose during peacetime, or the role of a surplus, or stripped down civilian version.

Most likely you want a different class of ship for this. Customs and border control needs a fast ship, not a heavily armed ship. Warships require heavy armament and protection.

However, Traveller warship combat is based on the notion of 2 players saying "lets have a battle" and therefore constraints like maneuver thrust don't apply except in the tactical rules. Traveller warships are designed to combat tactically only, and not strategically. For example they keep writing about the 'high guard' being the upper atmosphere 'covering' squadron for gas giant refuelling - but when playing a strategic campaign, in a system with a main world, guarding the gas giant with anything more than a picket/scout makes little sense. Why would you do it? You'll only have to rush back to the main world once they jump in.

So I feel current Traveller warship designs are broken to start with in that they are designed for stand-up battles, not strategic gameplay.

 

[Reynard]

"For both political reasons, and for practical reasons. I remember the commander of the US 5th fleet saying they lack the ships to "solve" the piracy problem by blockading the Horn of Africa and I imagine the US Coastguard would say the same thing about Florida."

I've noticed the various editions of Traveller with planetary resource systems have the same issues present day Earth has, not enough funds to have the best and the most of everything so you make due with what you can have. That also means sometimes the bad guys (and player characters) win. Budgets are a bane to civilizations past, present and far future. That means you have Police Cutters, SDBs and Patrol Corvettes with lasers instead of particle accelerators and moderate thrust rather than the very best and fastest. And before we forget, all but the most powerful bad guys don't have unlimited budgets either so they fly Corsairs and Free Traders upgraded when they're successful enough. The majority of smugglers and pirates don't buy or at least inherit a super ship. They start at the bottom and a majority get caught. The lucky and skillful ones get to upgrade and become a little more dangerous until they make a mistake. A grand ship doesn't guarantee success to a bad crew. Player characters don't run into the Scourge of the Spacelanes but deal with newbies and wannabes and the occasional veteran crew with a few additions to the ship. Wbnc's pirate chaser would be the one assigned to hunt the Scourges only because space force assets are tied up elsewhere but it still needs to be multi-purpose because Scourges are as rare as hen's teeth. Something like the SIPC might be a sector or maybe a subsector asset, just one or two, normally stationed at a capital until an assignment worthy comes along.

 

[phavoc]

"For both political reasons, and for practical reasons. I remember the commander of the US 5th fleet saying they lack the ships to "solve" the piracy problem by blockading the Horn of Africa and I imagine the US Coastguard would say the same thing about Florida."

I've noticed the various editions of Traveller with planetary resource systems have the same issues present day Earth has, not enough funds to have the best and the most of everything so you make due with what you can have. That also means sometimes the bad guys (and player characters) win. Budgets are a bane to civilizations past, present and far future. That means you have Police Cutters, SDBs and Patrol Corvettes with lasers instead of particle accelerators and moderate thrust rather than the very best and fastest. And before we forget, all but the most powerful bad guys don't have unlimited budgets either so they fly Corsairs and Free Traders upgraded when they're successful enough. The majority of smugglers and pirates don't buy or at least inherit a super ship. They start at the bottom and a majority get caught. The lucky and skillful ones get to upgrade and become a little more dangerous until they make a mistake. A grand ship doesn't guarantee success to a bad crew. Player characters don't run into the Scourge of the Spacelanes but deal with newbies and wannabes and the occasional veteran crew with a few additions to the ship. Wbnc's pirate chaser would be the one assigned to hunt the Scourges only because space force assets are tied up elsewhere but it still needs to be multi-purpose because Scourges are as rare as hen's teeth. Something like the SIPC might be a sector or maybe a subsector asset, just one or two, normally stationed at a capital until an assignment worthy comes along.

The horrors, sir! Budgetary constraints!

 

[Anonymous]

Do you need to chase a pirate? It's sufficient to have enough speed to escort merchants, and you can raid the pirate base later. If they're stealing ships or huge cargos, or fighting with escorts, they need some kind of base to operate from.

Smugglers are the ones you need to chase down.

 

[wbnc]

Do you need to chase a pirate? It's sufficient to have enough speed to escort merchants, and you can raid the pirate base later. If they're stealing ships or huge cargos, or fighting with escorts, they need some kind of base to operate from.

Smugglers are the ones you need to chase down.

problem is if you chase off a pirate it comes back....If you blow up a pirate it goes away....Pirate Chaser is not exactly all the ship is designed for. it can also chase smugglers, enemy scouts, any duty that needs an extremely fast ship. Like going in with heavy ships to take out a pirate base....the big ships do the dirty work..the chaser makes sure no one gets away.

 

[Condottiere]

Realistically, it would be budget dependent, and possibly bureaucratic and political infighting, by agencies who are contemplating mission creep to increase their budgets and politicians stir up the electorate to get elected, and pay off their campaign contributors in the defence and shipbuilding industries.

Paramilitarization in this case does depend on moving on the basics to bigger and more deadly weapon systems.

 

[Askold]

How stealthy can you be, if you have to land on a planet to deliver the goods?

I don't think you can run a blockade in Traveller, though you might be able to make aerospace drops.

Do the scanners in Traveller work well enough to notice every single ship approaching a planet? At least in low TL systems and low population worlds I would assume it is possible to land on a planet and take off as long as you do it on a location that isn't densely populated. Like on a newly settled world for example. Then again, perhaps those aren't the best sources of money for smugglers but it does bring up the idea that smugglers can use one ship to bring the stuff into the star system and then a local ship (That has a valid reason for coming and going and perhaps often does the trip so that the local law enforcement does not even bother to do a deep scan every single time they arrive.) to drop off the goods onto the planet.

 

[Reynard]

And that's the difference between somehow owning an amazingly expensive fast ship to plow through planetary surveillance nets and security forces or being clever.

 

[Condottiere]

Or steal an Imperial Shuttle and some currently used codes.

 

[wbnc]

Alright here are the stats..or the first draft of the final form.

I dropped the idea of reaction boosters due to the space fuel for the drives would require. and had to reduce the power to a point that it's drop tanks now slow it down a good bit. The military version is armed with a small missile bay for extra firepower.

The Civil/Merc version has no stealth, or bay weapons. but it has the same upgraded lasers for extra punch.I still have to figure the computer suite and programs, and final costs so I those blank for now.

 

[Askold]

Does this ship really need to have Jump 3?

I mean, you can't chase pirates from one system to another unless you rely on correctly guessing/determining exactly where they jumped and even if you do that do the pirate ships commonly have Jump 3? If you change the jump engine to Jump 2 or even 1 you can still move from one system to another and lie awaiting for the next prey. Jump 3 is only really useful if this ship is summoned from a distant system to hunt pirates and you need to move to the target system ASAP.

You would save a decent sum of money by downgrading the engine and get more room for other stuff as well.

 

[wbnc]

Does this ship really need to have Jump 3?

I mean, you can't chase pirates from one system to another unless you rely on correctly guessing/determining exactly where they jumped and even if you do that do the pirate ships commonly have Jump 3? If you change the jump engine to Jump 2 or even 1 you can still move from one system to another and lie awaiting for the next prey. Jump 3 is only really useful if this ship is summoned from a distant system to hunt pirates and you need to move to the target system ASAP.

You would save a decent sum of money by downgrading the engine and get more room for other stuff as well.

I get what your going for. My thinking was thatJ-2 would be fine for a patrol sip, or a merchant, and Jump 1 is functional for patrols on most routes. But j-1, and J-2, severely limits tactical and strategic movement. wit jump 1 you can jump..A to B...then B to C..the C-D..if the ship chasing you has J-3 it can be waiting for you at C well before you get there.

The J-3 IS for the ability to respond very quickly, and cross games that j-2 sips cant. it's not intended to set around idling waiting for someone to come too it, It is designed to aggressively hunt. so it can jump past a ship with J-1 and get into position at a likely gas giant, or fuel depot. the target ship jumps in system and now has empty tanks...it isn't going anywhere.

Also since they are expensive you can position them at central hubs if you want. A j-3 ship can cut corners, and take routes no J-2 can manage.Cutting weeks off it's response time. I it uses drop tanks for the first jump, then jumps without refeuling it can cover a j-6 route inn two weeks...where a J-2 ship with tanks can only make it in ....3 weeks plus refuel time after the second jump...that's if there is a route a J-2 can navigate.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on the concept you have in mind.

My Catalina would be jump one. The Bear would be jump three.

The Catalina is mean mostly for keeping an eye what's going on and Search and Rescue. The Bear is for reconnaissance and possibly the strike role.

 

[wbnc]

Depends on the concept you have in mind.

My Catalina would be jump one. The Bear would be jump three.

The Catalina is mean mostly for keeping an eye what's going on and Search and Rescue. The Bear is for reconnaissance and possibly the strike role.

that's as good an analogy as any.