Hyborian Age Map

[Atula Siriwardane]

Hyborian Age Map -My Favorite
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[VincentDarlage]

I was hoping you had a new map, not the one that comes with the game - and is horribly marred with inaccuracies.

I would love to see a professionally drawn version of these:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_full.jpg

http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age.jpg

 

[Atula Siriwardane]

Can you (and others who agree with) explain the inaccuracies..
I am commissioned to make one. I would love to consider..
Atula

 

[VincentDarlage]

Can you (and others who agree with) explain the inaccuracies..
I am commissioned to make one. I would love to consider..
Atula

Listing all the innaccuracies would take WAY too long.

Read this: http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/Cmuse15.html

Then read this: http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/Cmuse18.htm

Consider reading this: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34036

Check out my maps (look for Vincent Darlage's maps) here, which were made with modern research: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/

Those have regional maps as well as the world mapped I linked in my prior post. (Just compare that world map to the one you posted, and you can get a gist of the inaccuracies).

 

[Atula Siriwardane]

End of the first article it says that
...While one can never be 100% positive that this is exactly how Howard viewed the lands south of Stygia, I am absolutely sure that this map more accurate than the Miller/Clark LANY map and its many children. And in the end, that’s the whole point.

Which one do you think is the most accurate?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Dale's map (and mine, which are based off of his) are the most accurate.

 

[Croms Bones]

Vincent,

Thanks for your time in responding. I'm interested in an accurate map as well so I'll put some time into reviewing your suggested reading.

 

[Faraer]

Atula, no question Dale's and Vincent's maps are the most accurate. Some of their revisions are certain or almost certain, others are more challengeable, but no one else has produced Hyborian Age maps that considered the geography thoroughly enough to be in contention.

The map you first posted doesn't even match Howard's sketch-maps (published in the first and third Wandering Star/Del Rey volumes), which have to be the basis of further detailing and extrapolation based on the texts.

 

[Atula Siriwardane]

Actually I would like to know
...the criteria of measuring the authenticity of Hyborian map
...and what makes a map wrong.

If we can summarize and standardize important points which makes the map authentic we can check maps as a group and pick good points…
We can invite others too who had shown interest… (I have already invited one and he agreed)
If we check country by country (Perhaps in alphabetical order…) it would be easier to check, comment and set up a standard.. Even if we don’t come to a conclusion we will have different standards closer than now.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Actually I would like to know
...the criteria of measuring the authenticity of Hyborian map
...and what makes a map wrong.

Criterion 1: Does it agree with the writings and map sketches of Robert E. Howard? For example, the map you showed us, has mountains within sight of Khauran, and no river, but Robert E. Howard's short story, which gives a remarkable description of the land, does not mention mountains and mentions a river.

Any map with mountains along Khauran's border and no river is therefore wrong and not authentic (this is the case with most Hyborian age maps, unfortunately).

REH describes Khitai as "jungled" yet all maps (except mine and Dale's) place Khitai in a temperate zone. Therefore those other maps are wrong since they do not match with REH.

The map shown above has the border wrong between Aquilonia, Nemedia, and the Border Kingdom. It does not match the map REH himself drew. Therefore, the map is wrong there.

Criteria 2: The first author to place a location has precedence unless it does not meet Criteria 1. John Robert Maddox named the Black Mountains as the source of the Black River and along Cimmeria's western border. Therefore any map using Coleman's placement of the Black Mountains along the eastern border is wrong.

Criteria 3: No "double posting." The current map published with 2nd Edition has several locations on the map listed twice - in two non-contiguous locations! This just creates general confusion on where someplace is located. Even the map you posted above has the Karpash Mountains in two places (along two of the three Corinthian Borders)! This is wrong.

Any map with a location in two places is, by default, wrong. Imagine a map of the USA with the state of Indiana located in the Midwest AND over by California! That map would be wrong. Further, imagine a map of Europe with Rome marked in Italy and in Greece. That would be wrong. Those are the kinds of errors Mongoose's Hyborian age maps have.

Seriously, as a previous poster wisely and correctly stated, start with REH's original maps. Then add in Dale Rippke's researches, which use clues from REHs writings. Now, Dale does not include pastiche locations, so if you want those, then move onto my maps.

 

[librarycharlie]

Actually I would like to know
...the criteria of measuring the authenticity of Hyborian map
...and what makes a map wrong.

I agree with all of Vincent's points in terms of perfecting accuracy as regards real maps, or in immitating the imagined world of Howard, but have a very different take on the accuracy of a game map.

As I understand it, the intent of these forums is support/discussion of the Mongoose Conan RPG game line. In that regard, since Mongoose did not publish the original Conan stories, and only tiny segments of them are reprinted in the Mongoose texts, doesn't it make the "intent" of Howard much less important than the utility of the map provided in the context of a game?

I've been in two campaigns over the last couple of years that spanned from Korvela to the east coast of Khitai, always using the map provided in the Mongoose RPG. Neither campaign ever had a problem with traveling based on this map, despite any "inaccuracies," and if your GM accepts the map at face value then it provides consistent locations and distances between envisioned fictional locations (it's as good, for RPG purposes, as any I've seen, even if there are mountains or rivers undescribed in a Howard story).

Isn't that the purpose of a map? If the PCs sail into Zingara, and the GM says "It's there," then it doesn't matter what Howard said, because the GM is always right.

In the many map-discussions I've seen on these forums, individuals (particularly Rippke's research) focus on every single word of Howard, using the hint of sunlight on a mountain, extrapolated with the estimated time of day, to imply a mountain range within X kilometers in a general West-by-Southwest direction.

These word-by-word analyses seem to ignore the most basic explanations for why a "perfect" map has yet to be devised. Clearly Howard had only vague notions of where things went, exactly. See his sketches for how imprecise some of these ideas were. Isn't it a bit far-fetched to imagine that he had every single mountain, river, city, etc. drawn out in perfect detail in his own mind? Essentially, work like Rippke's takes as a basic assumption that Howard had a single, perfectly detailed image of much of Hyboria in mind. I've not seen any evidence that Howard either started with a defined map (rather than a character) when writing, nor have I seen extensive evidence that he was particularly interested in cartography. Ergo, the assumption that there even is an "accurate" map seems a bit ludicrous, no?

In reading Howard's stories, it always seemed to me that he would create lands based on what the story required, and then manufacture (or borrow) a societal structure to fill that land. The notion that there is a "correct" specific location for almost anything in Howard's world just doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence, because the people were far more important to him than the geography they occuppied. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that he produced map sketches only after several stories had been strung together so that he wouldn't accidentally contradict himself too badly, not because he wanted/intended to lay out specific logistical and cartographical distances.

I would, heretically, suggest that as a talented writer, many of Howard's location details (mountains in the distance, sun rippling off of waves on the river) were given merely to paint a more vivid picture in readers' minds, rather than to reflect on Hyborian (or wherever's) geography. Indeed, the rapidity with which he churned out many of the stories suggests that he simply didn't have enough time to create an elaborate topographical world between the spans in which he crafted stories in new locations he had not previously described.

If your task is to create an "accurate" map, ask yourself who is looking for it, what they're using it for, and whether you've reflected the spirit of Howard's sweeping empires, rather than the minutae of a word-centered analysis.

 

[Krushnak]

Those are all good points Librarycharlie but when Howard quite clearly states some things like the province of Poitain is south of the Poitanian mts and is bordered with Zingara by a river you would expect it to be like that on the map.

I too have used the various maps when running my game and whenever i come across any anomalies then i just chalk it up to those nemedian scholars not actually knowing what goes there and just filling it up.

 

[VincentDarlage]

...but have a very different take on the accuracy of a game map.

I could be wrong, but I am not getting the impression he (or the person who commissioned him) are creating a game map, but are attempting to create the best map that can be made with the available resources.

 

[Atula Siriwardane]

I think I agree with Vincent and Charlie both..
I agree with the 3 criterias...
While the map should be drawn true to REH's Hyboria I too agree that he must have been quite flexible.. I also think that he wanted a map for his stories rather than stories for the map.
As an artist I like this map more than others..prefer to draw my map based on this...than following another map...

So how about pin pointing the inaccuracies of this map first..
and then add what is missing in it...

 

[VincentDarlage]

Compare my map (or Dale's map) to this map - and the inaccuracies will be obvious.

Here are some starters:
A. Khauran is missing a river and has mountains too close to it.
B. Stygia is too small.
C. The Black Kingdoms are too small.
D. Aquilonia is too big & Nemedia is too small.
E. There are two Karpash Mountain ranges (there should be one)
F. Khitai is in a temperate zone.
G. Kosala is on the wrong side of Vendhya.
H. Pathenia is too far north (it should be where Mongolia would be)
I. Kush is the wrong shape.
J. The southern desert is too small.
K. There is no Atlaia or Amazon (REH said both exist there)
L. Keshan is on the wrong side of the Styx.
M. Zamora is the wrong shape.
N. Rabiran Mountains are placed wrong.
O. Goralian Hills should be in Aquilonia, not Cimmeria.
P. Hyperborea is too big.
Q. Brythunia is the wrong shape.
R. Mu? Why is that in the corner?
S. Lake Zuad is in Stygia, not Kush.
T. Sukhmet borders Darfar, not Kush.
U. Taian Mountains (at corner of Styx) are too massive.
V. Vendhya is placed wrong.
W. Uttara Kuru is in the wrong place.
X. Kordufan (mentioned by Howard) is not on the map.
Y. Korvela is too far north.
Z. Ilbars River is incorrectly placed.
AA. Zaporoska River is horribly misplaced.
BB. Hyrkania does not reach the eastern shore as it should.
CC. Where are the Golden Kingdoms on that map?
DD. Black Coast is too short.
EE. Southern Isles too far north.
FF. Zamboula is WAY too far north.
GG. Haunted pyramids are in Stygia.
HH. Shadizar in the wrong place.

Seriously, shall I go on?

 

[Strom]

Compare my map (or Dale's map) to this map - and the inaccuracies will be obvious.

Here are some starters:
A. Khauran is missing a river and has mountains too close to it.
B. Stygia is too small.
C. The Black Kingdoms are too small.
D. Aquilonia is too big & Nemedia is too small.
E. There are two Karpash Mountain ranges (there should be one)
F. Khitai is in a temperate zone.
G. Kosala is on the wrong side of Vendhya.
H. Pathenia is too far north (it should be where Mongolia would be)
I. Kush is the wrong shape.
J. The southern desert is too small.
K. There is no Atlaia or Amazon (REH said both exist there)
L. Keshan is on the wrong side of the Styx.
M. Zamora is the wrong shape.
N. Rabiran Mountains are placed wrong.
O. Goralian Hills should be in Aquilonia, not Cimmeria.
P. Hyperborea is too big.
Q. Brythunia is the wrong shape.
R. Mu? Why is that in the corner?
S. Lake Zuad is in Stygia, not Kush.
T. Sukhmet borders Darfar, not Kush.
U. Taian Mountains (at corner of Styx) are too massive.
V. Vendhya is placed wrong.
W. Uttara Kuru is in the wrong place.
X. Kordufan (mentioned by Howard) is not on the map.
Y. Korvela is too far north.
Z. Ilbars River is incorrectly placed.
AA. Zaporoska River is horribly misplaced.
BB. Hyrkania does not reach the eastern shore as it should.
CC. Where are the Golden Kingdoms on that map?
DD. Black Coast is too short.
EE. Southern Isles too far north.
FF. Zamboula is WAY too far north.
GG. Haunted pyramids are in Stygia.
HH. Shadizar in the wrong place.

Seriously, shall I go on?

That list is just the beginning of a bigger list? Man. Thanks for putting a visual to just how flawed the map is. Of course, PC's can't use out of game info - but still, I never knew it was that flawed.

 

[VincentDarlage]

That list is just the beginning of a bigger list?

Yes.

 

[Majestic7]

I must say that I've taken the map in the Atlantean Edition as in-game map, thus kind of solving the problem with bad placements. It is perhaps made by someone from Aquilonia, explaining the small size of Nemedia and general inaccuracy the farther away from Aquilonia the map goes. It is likely that the scholar who has made it has never even heard of the Golden Kingdoms or Atlaia and Amazon, explaining why their presence is lacking.

Of course, this is just a patchwork solution. After all there are certain "secret" places marked on the map. However, this is just an example on how inaccuracy game material can be turned in to in-game material that has reason for being inaccurate within the game... It would actually be quite cool to have separate inaccurate "in-game maps" and accurate "GM maps" for the game.

 

[Strom]

I must say that I've taken the map in the Atlantean Edition as in-game map, thus kind of solving the problem with bad placements. It is perhaps made by someone from Aquilonia, explaining the small size of Nemedia and general inaccuracy the farther away from Aquilonia the map goes. It is likely that the scholar who has made it has never even heard of the Golden Kingdoms or Atlaia and Amazon, explaining why their presence is lacking.

Of course, this is just a patchwork solution. After all there are certain "secret" places marked on the map. However, this is just an example on how inaccuracy game material can be turned in to in-game material that has reason for being inaccurate within the game... It would actually be quite cool to have separate inaccurate "in-game maps" and accurate "GM maps" for the game.

I've done the same Majestic with my use of the map. I have no hesitation in saying I'm probably only a 1/4 the GM of Vincent but I have always followed his advice by never letting anything get in the way of the story! 8)

 

[Krushnak]

Of course, this is just a patchwork solution. After all there are certain "secret" places marked on the map.

Well we do know Conan did draw up some maps while king of Aquilonia, Nordheim was the only one mentioned but im sure he must have done more.