How do you handle Crafting?

[Thoth]

Crafting your own equipment is becoming a more common mechanic in rpgs of late. But I am curious how to approach it in Lone Wolf Multiplayer.

Several character classes have crafting abilities, but they are limited to single use items like potions or short life charms. There is not much on making items of a more permanent nature.

In theory a Dwarven Gunner can make his own boom powder and weapons, but there is little mechanical support for it.

I am cool with the idea of needing a special workshop or forge to make magical items, but at what level does any given character class be able to use such a forge to make items.

Going by the solo books, Lone Wolf doesn't gain a magical crafting ability until the Grand Master series when he learns Kai-Alchemy and even then he doesn't do anything with it until the New Order series when he makes the Kai weapons. But Kai-Alchemy is just Left handed magic from the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star. So does this mean Banedon could have crafted the Kai Weapons during the lower levels?

Assuming you can eventually play Evil characters in this system, I could see a big need for crafting mechanics since the agents of naar are always making use of some form of magical item to make them big and scary. They routinely give such items to non-magical minions as bribes or part of deals.

Zakhan Kimah and the Orb of Death
Baron Shinzar with his flaming battle axe at the battle of Cetza
The various rings of power that show up (vonotar, Prince Lutha, etc.)

Does anyone have any home brew rules for this or even better are there any plans for official mechanics?

 

[August1]

Crafting, like profession skills, tend to fall outside the realm of a rule system based around quick resolution and simple framework. There's no place in the Lone Wolf rules for crafting, mostly because such activity is a long process unsuited to simple rolls and pass/fail mechanics.

That said, you do not really need rules because that is exactly what a Games master is for - adjudication. When does a Dwarven Gunner get a forge? Getting a forge isn't a level-based concept. He (or she) gets a forge when the resources and situation allow for it. In this way, crafting becomes what it really is. It becomes a situational matter where if the elements (skill, resources, tools and time) are all present, the Games master can work with the Player to determine the result. No rolls called for; no rolls need to be made.

All of THAT said, if you need mechanics, there are many systems out there to borrow from and lots of people on this board willing to come up with something original. Just be careful not to over-complicate the game for want of a (hammer and) nail.

-A

 

[Zager Krahl]

...Assuming you can eventually play Evil characters in this system, I could see a big need for crafting mechanics since the agents of naar are always making use of some form of magical item to make them big and scary. They routinely give such items to non-magical minions as bribes or part of deals...

Not to jump the gun, but I am in the process of finalizing a PDF document with seven - 7 - Drakkarim classes in it, which I will then release on the Project Aon board, as well as this one. You should have your Evil classes soon enough

 

[Thoth]

All of THAT said, if you need mechanics, there are many systems out there to borrow from and lots of people on this board willing to come up with something original. Just be careful not to over-complicate the game for want of a (hammer and) nail.

I was thinking less about over complicating things and more about potential story fodder and game balance.

One can avoid over complication by simply stating that a given character class can Craft once they attain a given rank and have taken specific abilities. These combinations would be different for each class and could reflect the innately non-magical or magical nature there of. From there it falls very neatly back into standard adventuring time tables, as long as you have a workshop. Attempting to craft on the move is where it gets troublesome.

Game balance is less about complications and more about keeping munchkins in check.

For instance if you have a mixed group that has at least one crafting capable character, that character can start producing magical items that quickly off set the normal restrictions that keep things in balance.

Imagine what would happen if players figured out how to produce Grey Crystal Rings and Psychic Rings and then pulled a Mandarin (multiple rings) with a mental attack focused Kai Lord, Magician of Dessi or Kloon Sage?

 

[August1]

As I said, there's a lot that can be done if those are concerns of yours.

I look forward to seeing what the community comes up with, mate.

-A

 

[beowuuf]

You can handle narrative and game balance by having the forge, etc be controlled by a higher level NPC teacher. And of course if there's a forge governed by the class/race of the character, then there are demands on the PC. It's not a case of 'how much stuff can he get' it's a case of 'what does he need to do to beg a favour from the NPC/race/class to even gte the time from normal duties to build his own item. Or even 'they build their own items. but need to beg off time for adventuring to use them, with all the obligation and story fodder that entails.' Dwarfs are tricky because boom powder and rifles are quite powerful but should be rare - I think that a single PC/NPC should not be able to craft them, and that it would need to be a team of characters - all with their specialities in metallugry, mechanisms, plating, chemistry -- that produce the item. It's them up to the needs of the campaign how quickly or how slowly all those elements tie together.

For evil classes crafting, I think they can craft with the needs of the plot, the real issue is to ensure that what they have doens't break the game if the part gets it The bestialry already hints at items - such as double damage black weapons - that evil character might have forged or been given.

Since monetery value are a provisional game balance value, you can always use them as a basic for crafting of other items. Although the D&D crafting system that equated time/money for the crafting time and difficulty was fiddly. Still, it's a basis that a person maybe can produce xGC or x/y GC of items per x time unit, and that magical items perhaps need a level gain in between the start and end of an attempt to represent the oppurtunities to gain access to the correct ingredients/expertise/research/time while on your travels.

 

[Thoth]

The problem comes from when a character makes the leap from magical item to magical infrastructure.

The Darklords of Helgedad and the Cener Druids of Ruel are both examples of magical infrastructure. The Magiocracy of Dessi is the only active "good" magical infrastructure group currently. The Shianti would be another, but they are oath bound not to do anything. I don't recall if Bautar has magical infrastructure since it is the Herbalish home state.

The balance of power in the world would shift quite a lot if a Magician of Dessi decided to create a plantation to mass produce and harvest Tarama Seeds. A group of Rank 20 Brothers of the Crystal Star, Herbwardens of Bautar, and Magicians of Dessi who could use their powers as freely as a Kai Lord has some interesting repurcussions.

Then again I am used to the Exalted game system where characters are expected to change the entire setting practically from character generation.

 

[August1]

Honestly, and this is not meant as criticism, this whole situation really sounds like you are going past crafting straight to industry. If your PCs have the resources and wherewithal to do half of what you are projecting, you have already taken the game far outside the scope of what its rule set is meant to cover.

Now that's not necessarily a bad thing. Stretching limits and thinking 'outside the dungeon' are how new games get invented, after all. But that's been my point from the start. You aren't, it seems, looking for rules in Lone Wolf to cover forging a new sword or enchanting a wand. You are seeking something far, far past that in scope.

I really do wish you luck with it.

-A

 

[beowuuf]

Magic is supposed to be scarce, so if you are expanding that then a few thigns happen. a) every NPC will start having access to that too. b) The PCs might find that its expensive to gain items, even if they are directly involved with the infrastructure that manufactures it c) A large resource like that suddenly becomes a target. If Dessi creates a set of fields, those fields become a viable target for Vassgonia to try to gain.

Your PCs should not be a one man magical/specialised item generation shop. If they gain a large crafting ability, it gets tied to a power structure or it gets targetted by many looking to destroy/gain it. Those are what would happen, and those are also the ways to balance it.

The characters would be forced to find their own equilibrium and balance for possessing it, or else it would be logical it would be taken from them one way or the other anyway.


Do you have an explicit situaiton you are worried over?

 

[Thoth]

Magic is supposed to be scarce, so if you are expanding that then a few thigns happen. a) every NPC will start having access to that too. b) The PCs might find that its expensive to gain items, even if they are directly involved with the infrastructure that manufactures it c) A large resource like that suddenly becomes a target. If Dessi creates a set of fields, those fields become a viable target for Vassgonia to try to gain.

Magic scarcity is some what inconsistent in the Lone Wolf series. Practically no one can make magical items, yet Laumspur grows wild and can be used as a healing aid by anyone. So technically anyone who has some spare gardening space can reap the benefit of some Laumspur production.

Given that certain areas in magnamund are constant conflict zones (darklands boarder areas, the Stornlands, Vassagonian boarder areas, etc) the demand for even simple things like healing potions would quickly outstrip the naturally occuring supply. The cost of a laumspur potion, in the afformentioned areas would be closer to 50 or 100 gold crowns, rather than 5 gold crowns.

Do you have an explicit situaiton you are worried over?

Its more an issue of players being creative in trying to get around game balance. Let me give a few examples of what I mean.

Dwarven Gunner of Bor decides to either modify or scratch build a Bor Musket & Bor Pistols that essentially have a built in Bayonet and striking surfaces. Do such adjustments give a CS bonus or would it mean the Dwarf could skip taking the Gun Butting skill until much later? But this whole situation is predicated on if the Gunner can craft his own gun or modify it. Also if you go to a gun maker to produce it, the adjustments would probably become popular on newer models.

An Herbwarden of Bautar gets tired of the constant wars in the stornlands and thus decides to use the life magic he knows to create a magical plague. The disease is essentially harmless, except it makes the infected person unable to regain Endurance Points from healing potions of Laumspur and Laumwort. The condition naturally clears up after two weeks. Most of the combatants would avoid combat until they are healty again. This in turn would save lives because no one would want to run the risk of fighting without healing aids being functional. But you still have to make the disease in the first place.

On the other hand a greedy player could have tricked the Herbwarden into producing said disease because the player has a plantation of a less affective healing herb but its affects aren't countered by the disease. This means the plantation owner can sell said herbs for 10 times their orginal value with ease.

Since there isn't really a book of magical items in the lone wolf setting, it becomes difficult to gauge exactly how difficult it would be to produce a given item and if it should be a storyline only production or is it something that can be crafted by the characters without having it be the focus of the quest.

But then again in a previous exalted game, my players managed to take over a decent section of the entire world using baking skills and gardening skills only.

 

[August1]

All excellent points and sound like some fine world-domination and empire building fodder.

While all of your points fall completely outside the scope of this game, I do hope you find what you are looking for. It sounds like you have thought it through quite a bit.

Might I suggest you try your hand at writing the rules yourself since none of our suggestions or comments seem to suit?

-A

 

[beowuuf]

Regarding Laumspur, I don't believe it is a magical plant, it is just a good healing agent and grows everywhere on Magnamund (though I don't think it's everf said it can grow anywhere, so not necessarily in every back garden). Also, I think thinking narratively about what it is doing is also one of the secrets to exactly what players can do with their crafting, etc.

So in the gamebooks (not so much the RPG) raw Laumspur and potions had the same restoration bonus. However, narratively / 'real world' you could assume that one is a 'better' bonus than the other. The raw leaf is providing some quick mitigation that for game flow and story flow is treated the same as the better potion or apothecary bought leaves.

So what are the leaves doing? Perhaps there is a temporary numbing effect or adreniline boost thatis what the EP restoration represents, or the leaves can also gum up bloody wounds if used in a quick bandage. Whereas properly prepared potions and leaf bundles are providing a more long term boosting of the immune system, are concentrated and augmented subtly, etc.

So while there is no difference casually between growing the plant and brewing the plant from a gameplay perspective, for the real world and for crafting purposes the leaves are not enough. There may be some long term heath penalties from using untreated leaves, addictions, the body building tolerance to it. So it's still necessary to introduce some skill and time to produce better quality stuff. So you can still limit the amount of good quality stuff available without compromising the system nor needing to remove the coomon, raw stuff from the game.


For the Bor Rifle example, sometimes the crafting stuff is a case of 'well, your character can do that, but it won't change the mechanical factors. It still takes skill to use the fragile rifle as an effective combat weapon, even with more thigns on it. It's still the same CS score, it's more just the narrative effects you can attempt with it (like knocking someone unconscious, say). And it takes a skilled crafter to create the weapon like that from scratch. And then just treat it like a superior weapon with a +1/2CS melee (with the extra cost that implies(

The other way to go would be to make the weapon system more complex, and so crafting things in to it can have subt;e effects instead of just s CS bonus. So if a spear and a quartstaff have different effects, then a rifle with a bayonet can count as an improvised spear to do X, or with striking surfaces as an improved staff with with Y effect.


For an actual crafting system, I would still keep it nebulous and light so that these sort of real world ideas can be introduced to balance the numbers. So perhaps a non-magical comsumeable item takes 1 days per use to make by 1 skilled crafter. You don't day why it takes a day exactly, though you might have in your mind the actual limit of time in your head in case the speed of plot needs to move faster,. So whether a cake, a laumspur potion, or a travel ration it just takes a day. The reason is as nebulous as other commitments, not getting the raw items right away, needing to leave things to stew, settle etc and not instantly getting back to it, etc. So it gives a base time, but one that is harder to abuse unless the plot demands it.

For more complex items, for the same nebulous reasons, say a base of it takes 1 skilled worker 1 week to create a simple permanent item, 3 skilled workers 3 weeks to create a more complex item, and five skilled workers five weeks to create a powerful non-magical item.

And with all of these that time can be crunched by having a set of equal amount of lesser skilled assistants under them. So three skilled artisans need three assistants each to reduce the time to 1 week, five skilled artisans need five assistants each to reduce the time to 1 week, etc.

So you can account for large scale production undertaken by cities or societies, especially gearing up for a war or for retail, while still having it a massive undertaking for a group likely to include the players.

So a weapon takes a week - for reasons not given, the blacksmith has commitments, loses a day lighting his forge on a monday, has to await materials, has a failure, etc. so a crafted item takes a week but there are plot ways to limit that once in a while to the realistic time iot would take.

A Bor Rifle takes three weeks of time, with three craftsmen co-ordinating. A keg of Boompowder takes five weeks with all these skilled Dwarves co-ordinating. It's an easy set of numbers for gam,e balance, and you can fudge the reasons so its not abused but can be tweaked as needed.


The other way to go might be setting a GC level. So say a skilled tradesman can create 10GC or 20GC worth of produce in a weekm depending upon their skill. Once more, keep exactly why and how loose. So a superior weapon would take 15 weeks to build, if the craftsman was very good, and reduced their output to 10GC a week for 15 weeks. The reason being they take time out of their schedule to visit places to get good material, they make proctise weapons to perfect a technique, etc. It's balanced, it could be circumvented if you need a perfect weapon built quicker, but otherwise it's a useable framework.

That would be the two ways I'd do it, anyway, and I'd certainly lean heavily on hand waving the narrative reasons why it takes that long to ensure that it isn't abused badly and the mechanics don't impose on your story needs.

 

[Thoth]

I think the biggest problem I am having is the lack of a quantifiable time table for the magical side of crafting.

For instance, if you have the right tools, the correct recipe and the right skills, making a really high quality sword without ornamentation only takes 3-4 days and thats using technology levels available to most of civilized places in magnamund. If you want something more ornate to befit its higher quality, making such a sword would take about a week.

Of course all of this changes if you take into account the near industrial revolution level of technology that the Darklands seem to have or the magical benefits of a place like the Forge of Elzian. But once again it is easy enough to assign real world production values to those fantasy tools and techniques.

What is problematical is the actual enchantment or magical imbueing of the item. If making a Vakeros Blue Steel Sword is just a question of standard sword making time tables, there is no reason that they would be so rare. Especially since the Magicians of Dessi can potentially become quasi-immortal, thus the knowledge, skill and technique would not be lost over time.

But as stated one can control this by storyline elements such as rules and regulations about producing such weapons or the rare components required to make it.

On the other hand something like Boom Powder, assuming indentical production requirements to real world black powder, is not so much a question of time to make it as it is a question of having a large enough area to process the powder. The amount of time to make a batch of powder is essentially the same regardless how much is in a batch. But the production level can't be too time consuming or costly, otherwise it wouldn't be embraced by the entire Bor Military as the basis of its weapons technology.

 

[beowuuf]

Magical items are rare in Magnamund, so there is a reason they are rare. As the GM, you just need to figure out that reason yourself really. I don't think a crafting system nees to have a rule to govern it and make them artificaially rare by resource management. Personally I think for magnamund the fact that magic items, on the whole, are ancient (unless created with effort by a very prominent figure) suggests it's not easy at all to make them if you are a non-evil aligned character. So there's no real timetable for creating magical items that aren't evil in origin- it's a big plot point to have one created, takes a large effort on the part of a major figure, or is a very cool find to discover one, and there will no doubt be a story attached to them. The magical runic spear in book 2 I beleive was supposed to originate from the Helghast Wars? A time when all of Sommerlund was bent towards fighting the Darklords just before Vashna's attack. So large effort in the past, cool historical link finding it.

Bluesteel blades aren't inherently magical in the RPG to my knowledge, so Paido's sword can be seen as a special item for a high level character. Bluesteel is otherwise rare because the material is rare, and other than the 'oooh' factor, not many people outside of the Vakeros would really care about blue steel weapons. So they are rare because of material, georgraphy, interest, knowledge of them, etc.

So personally I would control magical crafting of weapons by just not allowing it when connected to players, unless a plot reason demanded an NPC take an interest.


For realistically balancing the evil side, it seems numbers - such as availanble Nadziran - would be one factor, that controlling evil weapons might be a means of controlling loyalties another (so they never forge many...especially if they could then be used by their enemies), and personally I would make make creating evil magical items cost a part of the caster's essensce. So evil weapons are swift to forge and imbue with dark energy, but would weaken those invovled in their creation for a decent time. So a Darklord can command such thigns to be made, but would never allow his power base to be weakened by forging too many high level magical devices. And otherwise a Nadziran or group of Nadziranim or other powerful mages would never create magical items frivolously, and certainly not without direct benefit to themselves for the investment.


I think controlling things like boom powder can be done by just requiring as you say land mass, or my suggestion was a large assemblage of personel. A kingdom can set up a large and dedicated group of individuals and work them to keep an industry going. A small group of players, not so much.


As I said, I would suggest divorcing any real world/narrative from the system. Use the real world timing as a base time if there are narrative reasons to crunch the numbers to a low level. But play the crafting system in the abstract. It takes 5 weeks for a small group of five people to create boom powder, say. We know that it takes a shorter amount of time with less people if all the thigns can be lined up, because Bor's industry can do that and the real world that's how it happens. But they only do that for their military. And boom powder does not have to be exactly like black powder. In general, the commerical use for inside the kingdom runs slower, and there are always complications. So metagem wise, crafting takes 5 weeks for five people, and you can always alter the narrative / metagame resources needed to crunch that down if the player wishes that number crunched and you want them to be able to suddenly get their boom powder refreshed, or have it available as a plot point.


Anyway, clearly you have some good real world knowledge to apply to this, so hopefully you'll post anything you can come up with later on.

 

[Thoth]

Magical items are rare in Magnamund

Admittedly I am working from the older publications of lone wolf, but it always seemed that magical items were something you tripped over on a fairly regular basis.

Also a lot of the goodies one found had a nasty habbit of self destructing when their owners died or were defeated. So it would be rare for items to be handed down from owner to owner, especially with how cut throat the evil groups are supposed to be. That would in turn require batch production to equip all the baddies.

Then again I could be holding a grudge against that random female thief from Legacy of Vashna, the one that had a psychic weapon that cuts through anything but an advanced form of Kai Screen and allow her to steal all your stuff. :evil:

Bluesteel blades aren't inherently magical in the RPG to my knowledge, so Paido's sword can be seen as a special item for a high level character. Bluesteel is otherwise rare because the material is rare, and other than the 'oooh' factor, not many people outside of the Vakeros would really care about blue steel weapons. So they are rare because of material, georgraphy, interest, knowledge of them, etc.

I thought weapons that are made of magical materials and augmented your abilities counted as magical weapons.

The use of a Blue-Steel Sword in combat will give a +1 bonus to a Warrior-Mage’s combat skill. Whenever he engages in combat armed with this weapon, he may expend any number of willpower points of his own choosing. Each time he does this, the damage he deals on his next attack is increased by the number of willpower points he has chosen to expend. He may do this in any combat round, so long as he has willpower enough to do so.

The creation of blue steel requires rare minerals and magical components, some of which can be difficult to find and perilous to gather.

Anyway, clearly you have some good real world knowledge to apply to this, so hopefully you'll post anything you can come up with later on.

I have a few ideas and will post them once I run them through a few play tests.

 

[August1]

Looking forward to seeing it.