How do you guys handle Corruption?

[Der Rote Baron]

I know: Corruption bites your behind if you deal with demons, read forbidden tomes, discover secrets man was not meant to know etc. But what about wanton slaughter, torture of innocents etc. Does that earn players a corruption point?

Here is my example: I have a pirate/ thief in my campaign - no code of honor, three corruption points and getting viler and amoral every day. These point all come from various encounters with the evil supernatural.

The player is playing his new corruption points very well, without resorting to over the top violence - the character just does not give a shoot about other people any more (npcs so far) and is behaving "like a thieving pirate".

In comes a Borderer-Soldier. She has been played like a quite nice person, giving golden lotus to npc-madmen healing them that way and is generally speaking easy-going.

In the last adventure she willingly participated in the hour-long torture of a random elderly and utter helpless herder who was suspected by the pirate "to know something" about an evil cult. The pirate just grabbed the next best herder in the village and tortured him (rolling low in Intimidation and Sense Motive that he neither could break the resistance of the herder nor figure out if the herder knew anything. In the meanwhile the Borderer more or less actively participated in the torture by holding the victim, threatening him and even telling the pirate (while the herder was pleading for mercy) to kill him to keep the villagers from knowing that they took and tortured him.

Now I know that the world of Conan is no place for moral plays and no kindergarten or pony camp and I don't wnat to tell ym players how to play their characters. But I gave the Borderer 1 Point of Corruption (no save!) for stepping over the line. The pirate was "just doing his corrupted job" so no point for him.

My argumnet is that in Conan tortuing the guilty or persumed guilty is just the way the world is - so that is all right. Morals of the time.
But torturing the helpless just to "find something out" and the killing him after they leraned NOTHING is soul corrupting and since it was roleplayed there is no save. It was a decision, not some trap or encounter.
And one point is all she gets. Now she can torture the innocent all she wants - been there, done that. Routine of corruption.

What do you say? Is that the correct way to give out corruption points in Conan or is it just demons, supernatural evil and the likes? Should she get to save against corruption? What would the DC be?

Again: I am not mad at the player. This is not intended to be a "punishment", just the result of the actions the player chose. I am just not sure if that is the way the corruption rule is supposed to be used.

 

[flatscan]

That seems a bit heavy-handed to me. Every landed noble in the Hyborian kingdoms has a dungeon where they torture people whether for information or for fun and the game system doesn't set them up with Corruption because of it. They're being bastards to be sure and should garner a Reputation for it that can hinder future negotiations and bring the law down on them (for PCs, not nobles). But I would keep Corruption strictly in the realm of the supernatural.

In your situation I would have done the above (Rep for being a bastard, law possibly coming down). In addition I would have put a human face on it. A wife without a husband. Children without a father. Make it known that what they did cannot be undone and has been hurtful to people who are innocent of any wrong-doing. Possibly even dock XP if the situation warrants it.

 

[Krushnak]

that would be a serious infringement on most of the codes of honour and should result in immediate loss of its benefits not corruption. and if anyone was to find out about it they would gain a reputation for cruelty.

 

[Sutek]

I gree totally with those guys, with one caveat: If you plan to have corruption be a campaing issue with that character.

Use reputation for this sort of thing, or stripping characters of codes for violation of them, but try to leave Corruption for strictly supernatural exposure, unless you have some plan for that character that requires them to be a "node of corruption" ot something later on. I don't know what that would be, but you can use your imagination.

8)

 

[Der Rote Baron]

Thanks guys! Guess she is losing the point of Corruption then.

Must have been a last knee-jerk reaction from playing too many Lawful Good Paladins (though they DO ROCK when armed with Holy Two-Handed Swords + 5!). :wink:

 

[Sutek]

Who doesn't!!! (lol)

Trust me, if you state that you may have made a mistake and give them noth the rep to reflect being nasty, torturing SOBs in these here parts...the next village over is going to be even less cooperative, if you get my meaning.

What you were doing would be fine if there were alignments to create abalance that players had to adhere to. Without that, corruption is best for arcane, deamonic forces and reputation is best for prodding players away from torturing helpless, innocent civilians.

Keep in mind also that those peasants probably "belong" to someone...

 

[decker423]

I can actually see giving someone a point of corruption for torture on the caveat that the person in question did it for fun, for no purpose other than pleasure and did it for a LONG time (years).

If you give out fate points to PCs at the end of an adventure or specific mission (find the evil cult in this example) then you can cut those back or just not give them out (assuming you give out fate points that way).

I think reputation would be the best way to go. Word will spread of this blood-lusting pirate and honest folk would/should shun him if not going so far as to automatically attempt to protect themselves (say closing the town gates and shooting "warning" arrows at them) when he/she comes into their area (WHO in their right mind wants someone who LOVES torture, is EXTREMELY callous when it comes to killing the innocent, and will do it in a heartbeat for FREE to get inside their village and walk around!??).

Monsters (human that is) eventually end up being social pariahs. If this is the route a PC wants to take then so be it.

Those are my 2 cents and before anyone questions my gaming style, I tend to play EVIL characters but I accept that actions have consequences- intended and unintended.

 

[Der Rote Baron]

I am also all for "actions have reactions" and "deal with the consequences"-type of playing.

But regarding the Reputation Score: I find the Conan-way of acquiring reputation-points rather unwielding and cumbersome. Fisrtly, you add them up and then have to look at the table because there is no easy way to figure the bonus/ penalty out, secondly your type of reputation tends to be sometimes a hinderance OR an advantage in itself and not very balanced: You can get a Score of 25 (Hero of Aquilonia) and thta changes to (Killer of the High Priest) with a Score of 28 because you did that in the last adventure. Plus if played by the rules your score changes per region (not a malus on the roll, the score deminishes) and when you retire from adventuring for a period of time. Plusplus: You can get a reputation-score for every alias that you want to establish.

Okay, fine. You can use it. But still I find it rather overcomplicated and the score tell me not very much (even the table with the "how famous are you" excamples is not very enlightning in the lower scores).

Do you have an easier way of handling that? Other than that I would just stick to roleplaying the heroes notoriety/ fame according to the story and campaign-needs.

 

[Violetsaber]

The way I see it, corruption is a very special form of penalty given for a very specific set of actions - namely, having anything to do with the bevy of extradimensional evil so rife in Hyboria. Corruption doesn't even mean that a character is an evil person, or has done something inherantly WRONG. Corruption rolls can be forced just for speaking amiably with a demon, spending time with corrupted people who have certain feats, or any number of other things - but all are related to supernatural evil forces.

In other words, corruption is not something GM's hand out because players have done something offensive or callous. Corruption doesn't just reflect a marring of a character's concience. Corruption is the slow decent of madness and deformity caused when a character touches evil beyond human comprehension - eventually leading to complete insanity and a loss of the character!

The others on this board have offered a great number of other ideas, including an impact to reputation. Remember that reputation is updated (I believe) once per level (I always forget...), and is effected by what the general populace knows or suspects about a character. This is important because if the players killed and hid the farmer, the populace may SUSPECT they're murderers (maybe)... but they probably wouldn't suspect thier Spanish Inquisition impersonation (but then, who does?).

In other words, clever players may be able to keep a handle on thier evil reputation, assuming they want to and you don't throw a GM wrench in the cogs ("The farmer's son found his body!"). This being Hyboria, I personally make allowance both ways - characters who obvously don't care what others think about them gain all the reputation they've earned for good or ill. On the other hand, it's also completely possible for a sneaky evil person to hide his nefarious deeds, and walk in the limelight of public adoration as long as they are never found out.

Just my thoughts and ideas.

 

[Jeffreywns]

One of the firat sourcebooks for Conan gave Corruotion saves for looting, destroying trees and crops, 'taking" a woman who is with child, and enslaving alot of peopls at once. Along with a possible code of honor issue it would be perfectly reasonable for you to keep with your first ruling.
Your not imposing any restrictions on the behavior, just results of their actions.

 

[Sutek]

The rules are vague and allow for a character to gain a point of corruption for torturing a poor innocent old farmer to death. They do.

But in doing so, you set a trend and open the game up to a differen tlevel of impacts and obstacles that players and their characters are going to have to deal with. I mean, the results of too much corruption is like...friggin scaley skin and crap like that, and that could undo a Conan game that isn't supposed to be that strange according to canon. It's a Hyborian Conan game after all.

But then again, the same explanation, "It's a Hyborian Conan game after all," can be used to discuss the REH connection to HP Lovecraft. Corruption being a coversion into the spawn of the deep ones makes a kind of sense by the description of the physical manifestations, and the ruels do say simply that it is mainly a "more serious problem for magicians and other scholars" than for other characters, but it doesn't preclude others gaining Corruption points at all.

Right up to 6pts of Corruption the character is simple more and more detatched from human feelings and caring and it's probabyl reasonable to assume that someone commiting torturous murder could likely go that route. 7+ Corruption and you're getting into deals with demons and soforth that are game changers.

But where you have to be careful is in forcing your sense of morality on that of the character based on thier culture and class. So it's probably reasonable to issue Corruption points if that's what you want to open your campaign up to.

The real downside is, obviously, that Corrution is a cumulative penalty to the saves that gain characters Insanities, and this is where things start to slip out of control. If you've got good players that can play going bonkers and enjoy the balance between sanity and insanity, then proceed, but there's no recovery from Corruption. You can avoid insanity and recover by not practicing magic (so if you aren't a spell caster, all the better), but Corruption is constantly cuulative and can stack up fast to the point of lumpy head and bleedy eyes before you know it if you aren't careful.

:shock:

 

[Jeffreywns]

Both players could also spend fate points if they wish to get rid of their corruption. Our 13 lvl Stygian Scholar is as pure as snow.

 

[Violetsaber]

One of the firat sourcebooks for Conan gave Corruotion saves for looting, destroying trees and crops, 'taking" a woman who is with child, and enslaving alot of peopls at once.

Be that as it may, I don't believe the 2E rules are quite that all-encompassing. Even if they were, I would use my GM'ing Hand of the Narrorator to say: "Screw that."

Why? Because corruption is a force so evil it can physically alter your appearance and drive a character completely bonkers. Plenty of people in both real life and REH's Hyboria do things like the ones you mentioned, and none of them have gained blood-red eyes or longer fingers. Therefore, I stand by my opinion that corruption is only something to be inflicted in cases involving paranormal evil (in one way or another).

As was mentioned, consequences can be inflicted for "lesser" evil actions using reputation or a loss of an honor code. Guess that's why I didn't bother to give my pirate a code of honor.

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone - or anyone - else has to rule this the same way. This is just the way I see it.

 

[Jeffreywns]

I believe the looting rules in The Free Companies are a little harsh myself and have never used them. I was just throwing out the examples given for corruption from mundane sources. Now that you mention it they were pre-atlantian edition rules.

 

[Hervé]

Well, I don't know how this should be handled, but I guess it depends of the tone and mood of your campaign.

While it's true it wouldn't seem logical to gain a scaly hide because of "mundane" evil acts, REH heroes tend to be on the "good side", even if they may be reavers and slayers and generally don't indulge themselves into gratuitous torture or other basically "evil" acts.

If you want to keep an "Howardish Flavour", players should not be allowed to be truly evil without some sort of retribution. It's pulp S&S after all...

However, it's also possible to play the game a darker way, where characters are not always "heroes". In this type of game, Corruption should be limited to the supernatural.

 

[Axerules]

I do agree with Violetsaber: IMO corruption should only come from contact with the surnatural.

AFAIK, horns didn't grow on Conan's brow when he sacked Abombi or burned Khawarizm...

 

[rabindranath72]

I agree that Corruption can be a tricky subject to deal with (as the Free Companies book shows), since its definition can be quite open to interpretation. For example, there is a feat in Scrolls of Skelos, Debaucher, which requires as a prerequisite to have 3 points of Corruption, yet the actions in the feat itself do not require necessary contact with a demon or supernatural entity. By this standard, any sort of debased or cruel act could be considered a source of Corruption.
However, IMO one must also think in terms of Hyborian Age morals and ethics, and how the GM wants to handle such things. I feel that Corruption is best reserved for sorcerous sources of corruption, things so essentially wrong that they alter the physical aspect and the mind of a person.
If one wants to use Corruption for more mundane acts, I suggest limiting the maximum Corruption points which can be acquired (for example, up to 6 points). Even the most depraved character could not get more than 6 points by any natural, human means.

 

[Spectator]

YEah I echo what a lot of people have said (take note I still am in 1st Ed.) and that the FREE COMPANIES corruption rule for dastardly acts was pretty silly.
If torture were corrupting the whole Pictish nation would have horns, scaly skin, and fangs, etc...
Corruption should ONLY be gained by exposure with otherworldly creatures; not slaughterhouses, torture chambers, cannibal darfuri baby-eating parties, etc...
Reputation penalties are completely logical and damaging enough.
You ever been ran out of town by 120 peasants? Your great cleave may get a few, but probably not all.

 

[Hervé]

Some Howard villains, notably in Solomon Kane, look corrupted even if they don't deal with the supernatural. Their soul is black as hell even if they don't grow horns or scales..

Spectator idea of limiting non supernatural Corruption to a fixed level is not so bad. Or maybe the physical changes for "mundane" Corruption could be different, with traits reflecting decadence, cruelty or debauchery...

The borders of the unnatural are pretty thin in the Hyborian world, and people that relish in evil would probably gain some Corruption. Now it's up to each GM to adapt Corruption effects to each character and story. The ones in the rulebook are just examples.

As I stated before, I feel the game should be played with larger than life heroes in order to reflect Howard writings. The world may be tainted by the forces of the dark, but not the heroes. Howard writings are a lot about keeping one's freedom, purity of soul and mind, be it against the forces of darkness or against the decadence of civilization.

Playing the game with evil characters is possible, but falls outside of the REH canon...

 

[kintire]

I agree with Herve (which is not something I say everyday). Howard is not amoral. People are not black and white, but there are right sides and wrong sides, and his heroes are on the right side.

I'm not sure corruption is the right mechanism, but people do not get away unmarked by that kind of behaviour.