emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Voronesh said:
but they still can with the lasers :?
the ion cannons replace twin arrays which cannot use CAF anyway so there is absolutely no change in that department!
House rules for beam-less Centauri?
- Thread starter blackphoenix
- Start date
but they still can with the lasers :?
the ion cannons replace twin arrays which cannot use CAF anyway so there is absolutely no change in that department!
What sought of range would they have?
Twinlink might a wee bit much and it looks just like a matter cannon but twinlinked. Maybe lose the DD and give it range 20.
The Battle laser/ Plasma Stream could AP,TD,Slowloading and have it Short ranged.
Suppose Heavy ion wouuld be 20, Medium 15, Light 10.
Twinlink might a wee bit much and it looks just like a matter cannon but twinlinked. Maybe lose the DD and give it range 20.
The Battle laser/ Plasma Stream could AP,TD,Slowloading and have it Short ranged.
Suppose Heavy ion wouuld be 20, Medium 15, Light 10.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Ion cannons need to be more powerful than matter cannons. At least they should have DD and AP, if not SAP and probably precise as well.
emperorpenguin said:
Absolutely no mini-beam, but how to "overload" interceptors?
Some ideas:
- 1> Lots of AD, but that will likely unbalance against non-interceptor fleets.
2> Interceptors only block on "6"s (or maybe 5+)?
3> Lots of AD, but like beams, each weapon has restricted targetted (i.e. all targets within 4" of each other, or perhaps less...)
Thoughts?
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
the problem with 2 & 3 is you're needing new rules there
I'd say a high number of AD. This won't be unfair against non-interceptor races any more than the current beam heavy centauri
I'd say a high number of AD. This won't be unfair against non-interceptor races any more than the current beam heavy centauri
Lots of precise dice will be a game breaker against folks who cannot defend.
Beams right now depend on a couple of initial good rolls, by going with a high number of AD you are removing the chance of a single bad roll removing a bunch of potential hits. Beams have a fairly high variance in number of hits they produce, but the high end they can produce is fairly rare. With just dropping the pile of dice the high end is more likely as you cannot get a string ending bad roll, all dice are equal.
We have seen this happen with the Dilgar often enough, dropping 12 dice needing 4's can easily produce 8-10 hits. Doing the same thing with a 3 AD SAP/DD beam is not so easy as any one bad roll will stops a die, forcing the other dice to roll for higher numbers to acheve the same number of hits.
Ripple
Beams right now depend on a couple of initial good rolls, by going with a high number of AD you are removing the chance of a single bad roll removing a bunch of potential hits. Beams have a fairly high variance in number of hits they produce, but the high end they can produce is fairly rare. With just dropping the pile of dice the high end is more likely as you cannot get a string ending bad roll, all dice are equal.
We have seen this happen with the Dilgar often enough, dropping 12 dice needing 4's can easily produce 8-10 hits. Doing the same thing with a 3 AD SAP/DD beam is not so easy as any one bad roll will stops a die, forcing the other dice to roll for higher numbers to acheve the same number of hits.
Ripple
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
I had a good look through the Centauri fleet list tonight and I think that changing all twin arrays to ion cannons using heavy array stats (double damage and twin-linked) works (at least on paper)
I noticed that the Abbai blurb talks about combat lasers being based on batle lasers and we know that narn lasers are souped up versions of battle lasers. So my idea is to change battle lasers from Super AP, Double damage to AP and maybe Precise
On paper the damage potential for a ship with current battle lasers and twin arrays is almost identical to the damage potential for such a light laser and ion cannon armed ship, so it shouldn't be overpowered. Range on the lasers should probably come down but range on the ion cannons increase to compensate. Say 18" lasers much like the Abbai and 15" ion cannons?
We then get Centauri which better fit what we see on screen BUT still having lasers to fit with non screen canon too AND we get a fleet that plays uniquely and cannot any longer be accused of being a CAF! beam heavy nightmare
Thoughts?
I noticed that the Abbai blurb talks about combat lasers being based on batle lasers and we know that narn lasers are souped up versions of battle lasers. So my idea is to change battle lasers from Super AP, Double damage to AP and maybe Precise
On paper the damage potential for a ship with current battle lasers and twin arrays is almost identical to the damage potential for such a light laser and ion cannon armed ship, so it shouldn't be overpowered. Range on the lasers should probably come down but range on the ion cannons increase to compensate. Say 18" lasers much like the Abbai and 15" ion cannons?
We then get Centauri which better fit what we see on screen BUT still having lasers to fit with non screen canon too AND we get a fleet that plays uniquely and cannot any longer be accused of being a CAF! beam heavy nightmare
Thoughts?
That doesn't sound bad...the 18/15 range mods give a good enough range to get in there quickly but not tempt you to just sit back. DD/TW is not bad either, backed by AP/Precise (not too many AD hopefully) and we have a nice pair.
Just compare max damage (assuming no stringing out the 6s on beams) to see if there is a really large swing. Think that is why the Dilgar feel wierd in many fights, the upper end of their damage is high for the probability. Maybe I can get myself to do some graphs at some point.
Ripple
Just compare max damage (assuming no stringing out the 6s on beams) to see if there is a really large swing. Think that is why the Dilgar feel wierd in many fights, the upper end of their damage is high for the probability. Maybe I can get myself to do some graphs at some point.
Ripple
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
15" is far too short. We see the Primus unloading ion cannon shots into B5 from a staggering distance. The station is pretty small on screen when the cruiser fires, but the blasts still do tremendous damage. DD TL is nice, but does it really represent blasting lumps off a huge space station with a couple of hits?
Babylon 5 may only be hull 4 but the damage was extreme for saying only two or three pulses actually hit the station. The larger ion cannons should have a long range and do plenty of damage. Battle lasers picking up precise and AP in exchange for SAP and DD and dropping range is fine to my mind. Still useful but not a primary weapon any more.
Babylon 5 may only be hull 4 but the damage was extreme for saying only two or three pulses actually hit the station. The larger ion cannons should have a long range and do plenty of damage. Battle lasers picking up precise and AP in exchange for SAP and DD and dropping range is fine to my mind. Still useful but not a primary weapon any more.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
to be fair you can't use on screen estimates of distance because there is no real frame of reference or continuity
Reducing beam range makes sense as the less powerful centauri lasers would dissipate faster than the narn version
In compensation we almost double the current twin array range and change the centauri from long range snipers to a genuine knife fighter fleet
DD versus a space station will actually do quite a lot! D6 times 2 remember.
Reducing beam range makes sense as the less powerful centauri lasers would dissipate faster than the narn version
In compensation we almost double the current twin array range and change the centauri from long range snipers to a genuine knife fighter fleet
DD versus a space station will actually do quite a lot! D6 times 2 remember.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
But we see Narn ships and Shadow ships firing on each other from outside of visual range, they can't see each other at all. If your able to see your target when you fire on it in space you are not at long range...
Nick
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
captainsmirk said:
agreed and in fact the Shadows fire their 18" beams before the 30" narn beams......
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Although its not any relation to B5 or ACTA this is an interesting discussion of the practicalities of space combat in a slightly more realisitic environment:
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_weapons_tech.html
Relates to an Online Comic the author is producing.
Nick
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_weapons_tech.html
Relates to an Online Comic the author is producing.
Nick
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
emperorpenguin said:
It's the only frame of reference we have, though.
Also, DD TL doesn't seem right to me. From what I've pieced together from fluff sites and been told about the dialogue in episodes when ion cannons are talked about, people are scared of them. DD TL doesn't really frighten me. Even with TL you won't be scoring many hits against hull 6 targets, will you? They need AP at the very least, and better range and more AD than most matter cannon mounts, otherwise they're totally pointless.
Well TL is about as good as AP.
Against hull 6 its worse
Otherwise it only gets better and better, but only as long is you ignore that an AP weapon can CAF and a TL one (for some reason) cant.
So giving the TL and DD and be done with it, would require huge numbers of AD.
Current Primus puts out 4 hits against a Hull6 ship. Without CAF. AT least 12 AD needed with TL,DD to match it.
With CAF you get 6 Hits. Thatd need more than 18 AD.......Dunno where you want to put the actual number of AD. But that should be about the right area.
Supporting bemas id put somewhere at 10". With AP, Beam. But this is just gut feeling (Well which is about as good as anything else
)
Against hull 6 its worse
Otherwise it only gets better and better, but only as long is you ignore that an AP weapon can CAF and a TL one (for some reason) cant.
So giving the TL and DD and be done with it, would require huge numbers of AD.
Current Primus puts out 4 hits against a Hull6 ship. Without CAF. AT least 12 AD needed with TL,DD to match it.
With CAF you get 6 Hits. Thatd need more than 18 AD.......Dunno where you want to put the actual number of AD. But that should be about the right area.
Supporting bemas id put somewhere at 10". With AP, Beam. But this is just gut feeling (Well which is about as good as anything else
)captainsmirk
Mongoose
Voronesh said:
Well the TL being able to CAF is a rules thing, they produce the same effect, and to stop people constantly re-rolling dice its just easier to rule that a dice can only be re-rolled once (its a common enough ruling used in other rules as well).
Nick
I guess I would hesitate to use Hull 6 as the basis for your calculations. Hull 5 is more common (often with interceptors) at Raid and below. CZuschlag and I had this debate a while back and the game seems more designed around hull 5+ than hull 6. The math turns out to work a bit differently.
Primus beam vs hull 4 - 12 hits + 2 crit (caf 13 hits + 2 crit)
Primus beam vs hull 5 - 7 hits +1 crit (caf'd 9 hits +1 crit)
Primus beam vs hull 6 - 4 hits (6 hits +1 crit)
to produce equivalent
Twin-linked vs hull 4 - 16 AD (17 AD to equal caf'd)
Twin-linked vs hull 5 - 12 AD (18 AD to equal caf'd)
Twin-linked vs hull 6 - 13 AD (19 AD to equal caf'd)
Given that hull 4 is the rare hull I would think replacing a primus laser to equal its original firepower you would be looking at something like the twelve to fourteen dice. I would tend towards the twelve given you will still have a beam weapon at close work time and interceptors can be soaked either by your own tertiary weapons at close range or a companion ship. This means the ship does operate a bit more like the Kaliva in close which is a good solid goal.
Ripple
Primus beam vs hull 4 - 12 hits + 2 crit (caf 13 hits + 2 crit)
Primus beam vs hull 5 - 7 hits +1 crit (caf'd 9 hits +1 crit)
Primus beam vs hull 6 - 4 hits (6 hits +1 crit)
to produce equivalent
Twin-linked vs hull 4 - 16 AD (17 AD to equal caf'd)
Twin-linked vs hull 5 - 12 AD (18 AD to equal caf'd)
Twin-linked vs hull 6 - 13 AD (19 AD to equal caf'd)
Given that hull 4 is the rare hull I would think replacing a primus laser to equal its original firepower you would be looking at something like the twelve to fourteen dice. I would tend towards the twelve given you will still have a beam weapon at close work time and interceptors can be soaked either by your own tertiary weapons at close range or a companion ship. This means the ship does operate a bit more like the Kaliva in close which is a good solid goal.
Ripple
Oh...and about the chunks off teh station...
Go watch that scene closely, how many hits from those tiny little bolts did it take destroy the Primus? Four, I think, total. Ships in the series are incredibly fragile, a die or two hitting should be enough for almost any ship to be beyond saving.
Ripple
Go watch that scene closely, how many hits from those tiny little bolts did it take destroy the Primus? Four, I think, total. Ships in the series are incredibly fragile, a die or two hitting should be enough for almost any ship to be beyond saving.
Ripple
Yes and relizing that your statline for hull 6 and 5 do not really differ......
Guess my gut feeling is as good as your statline.
Quoting myself:
Current Primus puts out 4 hits against a Hull6 ship. Without CAF. AT least 12 AD needed with TL,DD to match it.
With CAF you get 6 Hits. Thatd need more than 18 AD.......Dunno where you want to put the actual number of AD. But that should be about the right area.
and yours:
Twin-linked vs hull 5 - 12 AD (18 AD to equal caf'd)
So yes i went with Hull 6 no interceptors. Kinda should be as good as Hull5 with interceptors. (Overloadingis an issue, but not so much, as Centauri fighters arent too good, and the at long range Centauri wont have a ceptor drain weapon)
Hei this is kinda a good argument for: all B5 ships are pretty much designed by gut feeling ^^.
Guess my gut feeling is as good as your statline.
Quoting myself:
Current Primus puts out 4 hits against a Hull6 ship. Without CAF. AT least 12 AD needed with TL,DD to match it.
With CAF you get 6 Hits. Thatd need more than 18 AD.......Dunno where you want to put the actual number of AD. But that should be about the right area.
and yours:
Twin-linked vs hull 5 - 12 AD (18 AD to equal caf'd)
So yes i went with Hull 6 no interceptors. Kinda should be as good as Hull5 with interceptors. (Overloadingis an issue, but not so much, as Centauri fighters arent too good, and the at long range Centauri wont have a ceptor drain weapon)
Hei this is kinda a good argument for: all B5 ships are pretty much designed by gut feeling ^^.