Himelian variant: Sherpas-like culture

[treeplanter]

Hello;

I would like to heard some tought of other folk about this subject: what would likely represent todays Sherpa culture in the Conan universe, so more precisly:

- People living high in the himelian mountain
- Poeple that look more like a mix of Asiatic, Indian or Tibetan trait rather than hairy and more Arabig look of the rest of Ghulistan.

We have those information from sourcebook.
In Hyboria's fiercest, under the Gullhistan Nomad, there is a mention of the Ghulpa, a nomad tribe who live high on the himelian plateau. This could likely made a good Himelian subrace, with the following trait:

Favored class: Nomad instead of barbarian

+2 Climb instead of hide and move silently. substitute hide or ms for climb as background skill. Substitude Desert for Hill and mountain as Nomad favoured terrain.

Also, in the Road of king, their is mention of the Khirguli, wich are Ghulistan poeple, with an added +1 bonus to climb check. That could also be a good representation.

other tought?

 

[Demetrio]

One of the defining features of the Sherpa is his stereotypical speed over difficult ground on foot and his endurance. So I'd say Borderer as favoured class, not Nomad.

The Tibetans historically did field heavy cavalry to the discomfiture of the Chinese, but the Sherpas are not, as far as I am aware, really part of that culture.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

What you describe already exists, it would be a Pathenian. It hasn't been written up in any book but I would use the same rules as someone from Khitai. Favored class should definitely be scholar.

 

[Supplement Four]

Not sure if this helps, but there is a pastiche short story set in Conan's universe version of Tibet: Meru.

Check out: The City of Skulls, by Lin Carter and L. Sprague de Camp.

It's a damn good story, too!

 

[treeplanter]

Never read city of skull, i'll try to get the hand on this.

@squidyak: Well not sure we are talking about the same things here. Sherpa are not tibetan monk, they are mountainer. either Barbarian, nomad or borderer should be appropriate here. I dunno what Pathenian represent, but I really think either the Ghulpa or the Kirguli are more approriate here.

 

[Supplement Four]

Never read city of skull, i'll try to get the hand on this.

I believe it's in the Ace series, the first book called Conan. There are comic adapations too. I think Savage Sword did an adaptation of it.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

Never read city of skull, i'll try to get the hand on this.

@squidyak: Well not sure we are talking about the same things here. Sherpa are not tibetan monk, they are mountainer. either Barbarian, nomad or borderer should be appropriate here. I dunno what Pathenian represent, but I really think either the Ghulpa or the Kirguli are more approriate here.

The sherpas are in Tibet. Having a seperate race for the sherpas and the monks would be like having a different race for aquilonian knights and borderers. Just because they have different professions doesn't mean they're a different race. The culture you are describing already exists in Pathenia.

 

[Scorpion13]

Wait, isnt Pathenia the place in the Sprague De Campe story where they kidnap Juma and Conan?

Cuz they aint Sherpas. Theyre much more like Black Kingdoms guys than Sherpas. They dont live on the sides of mountains, they live in a bizarre tropical plateau. They raid down the mountains, but that hardly makes them mountain people. For gosh sakes, they have their own inland sea! A big one from what the stories said.

I would argue that a Sherpa like people would be their own racial subgroup. Id use Yeutshi and give them some bonuses to climbing and whatnot. Not really a warrior race. But then, that just from what Ive heard about them. I havent read up on them, so please, correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Supplement Four]

Wait, isnt Pathenia the place in the Sprague De Campe story where they kidnap Juma and Conan?

You're thinking of The City of Skulls, where Juma and Conan get captured. Juma is a black, but he's also a soldier of Turan. It's set in Meru, the Age of Conan version of Tibet, in between the Talakma and Himelia mountain ranges.

Mentioned, but not seen, in the story are the Kuigar nomads. Then, there are the Meruvians. I'm sure there's plenty of room for other racial spin-off types in that area, as there is in real life.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Wait, isnt Pathenia the place in the Sprague De Campe story where they kidnap Juma and Conan?

No. Pathenia is mentioned (not visited) in The Flame Knife. De Camp rewrote a Howard tale and turned it into a Conan tale. If you look up the original tale (Three-Bladed Doom), de Camp merely exchanged the word "Mongolia" with "Pathenia."

Since the Sherpa do not live in Mongolia, I would posit that placing a Sherpa-like culture in Pathenia does not make any sense at all (despite what squidyak seems to think).

The Flame Knife, of course, first appears in Gnome Press' Tales of Conan, then again in the Lancer/Ace Conan the Wanderer, and again in an illustrated version published by Ace books.

Three-Bladed Doom is a Francis Xavier Gordon (El Borak) adventure. I have it in an Ace edition.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

Wait, isnt Pathenia the place in the Sprague De Campe story where they kidnap Juma and Conan?

No. Pathenia is mentioned (not visited) in The Flame Knife. De Camp rewrote a Howard tale and turned it into a Conan tale. If you look up the original tale (Three-Bladed Doom), de Camp merely exchanged the word "Mongolia" with "Pathenia."

Since the Sherpa do not live in Mongolia, I would posit that placing a Sherpa-like culture in Pathenia does not make any sense at all (despite what squidyak seems to think).

The Flame Knife, of course, first appears in Gnome Press' Tales of Conan, then again in the Lancer/Ace Conan the Wanderer, and again in an illustrated version published by Ace books.

Three-Bladed Doom is a Francis Xavier Gordon (El Borak) adventure. I have it in an Ace edition.

Wow, is that so incrediby wrong. Hyrkania is the equivalent of Mongolia. Pathenia is the largest mountain range in Hyboria, analogous to the Himalayans. Himelia actually matches up poorly geographically.

Please reference the following map: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/chrysagon_hyboria.jpg

Irregardless, a sherpa race would make no sense. The Tibetan culture is far more centered around monks than sherpas. A sherpa is just a guide, it's just a Tibetan borderer.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Wow, is that so incrediby wrong.

What exactly is so "incredibly wrong"? That L. Sprague de Camp took a Howard story and substituted a mention of Mongolia with Pathenia? Or was it the locations where the stories could be found so you could look it up yourself?

Pathenia is the largest mountain range in Hyboria, analogous to the Himalayans. Himelia actually matches up poorly geographically.

Care to back that statement up with an REH reference? Does your knowledge that Pathenia is the largest mountain range in the Hyborian age (or Thuria) come from out-dated and inaccurate maps, or does it come from an authoritative & canonical source?

The only references I know of for Pathenia is The Flame Knife by REH and LSdC and Savage Sword of Conan #219, "Black Hound of Death", by Roy Thomas. Neither reference confirms your statement. Certainly these references show Pathenia has mountains, these mountains are high enough to be cold, and it has man-apes very similar to the Almas of Mongolian legend.

(Hmm... Mongolian man-apes... yet I am "incredibly wrong." Yet I am seeing a lot to connect Pathenia up with Mongolia...)

However, those references do not show it to be the "largest mountain range."

Indeed, the Roy Thomas story connects Pathenia with Hyrkanian culture, not Khitain culture.

Keep in mind that L. Sprague de Camp also used "Pathenia" in an alternate-history novel he wrote called "The Incorporated Knight." In that story Pathenia is a medieval Europe location with stage-coaches and dragons.

Please reference the following map: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/chrysagon_hyboria.jpg

LOL. That is one of the ugliest maps, and it perpetuates many cartographical errors (including the error that the continent is called "Hyboria" in big bold letters).

Here are some problems with your chosen map:
1. Calls the Thurian continent "Hyboria."
2. Kordafan is misspelled.
3. Does not place the Golden Kingdoms.
4. Does not place Atlaia.
5. Places the tribes of "Vale of the Lost Women" too far apart - and along a river of Death where they couldn't even drink the water.
6. Xuchotl is misspelled.
7. Does not place Tombalku, and spreads the tribes mentioned in the Tombalku fragment throughout Darfar.
8. The Southern Desert is too small.
9. Places the Mountains of Fire where the Taian Mountains belong.
10. Meru is too big and too prominant.
11. Pathenia is the wrong place.
12. Kosala is on the wrong side of Vendhya.
13. Khitai is too far north to be the jungle-shrouded land REH wrote of.
14. Hyrkania does not stretch from the Vilayet to the coast of the eastern ocean as REH implied.
15. Aquilonia is too large.
16. Argos' border with Zingara is not correct.
17. The rivers are freakin' huge!
18. The artist placed mountains around Khauran! WTF? Re-read "A Witch Shall Be Born." It gives a great description of Khauran. No mountains. Divided by a river. On half is desert, other half is fertile. Not indicated that way on this map, though.
19. Speaking of Khauran, it is too far west of where REH placed it on his own maps.
20. Mislabelled "Ghulistan" as "Afghulistan."
21. Does not include the Trallibes (islands mentioned in The Black Stranger) off the coast of Zingara.
...

and do I really need to go on? I could list more problems if you would like. Those I listed here are just the most obvious ones. Your "proof" is an incredibly flawed map.

(Actually, I would argue that the Chrysagon map is one of the most flawed maps of the Hyborian age available on the internet, yet a lot of fan sites use it. I am not sure what the attraction is.)

Instead, reference the following map:
http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyrkania2.jpg

It's not much prettier, but its more accurate, IMHO. Also, it includes places from most of the pastiches and Marvel comics - something your chosen map couldn't possibly achieve.

To sum up: You claimed I was "incredibly wrong" with my post, but failed to show what part of my post is wrong. I, on the other hand, have offered evidence that Howard's original writing used "Mongolia" and that L. Sprague de Camp changed it to "Pathenia." I have shown that Mongolia has man-ape legends (the Almas), which makes the original inference valid. You offered a map as evidence. I have shown that your chosen map is seriously flawed, which invalidates your evidence. I have also shown there is evidence that L. Sprague de Camp likes the name Pathenia and has used it even in non-Conan stories. I say my evidence for a Mongolia correlation outweighs your evidence that it is a Himalaya correlation.

Thanks for playing. If you have further evidence on your side of the argument, let me know. I'll certainly play again.

 

[Scorpion13]

Hey there Squidy, um, you just called out the guy who wrote almost all of the product line! A product line that has been hailed for it's accuracy by REH diehards.

 

[Demetrio]

The Sherpa certainly are a distinct culture. Stereotypically they'd best be modelled by Borderer favoured class (with mountains and hills as the choices for Favoured Terrain). As they're generally hospitable and like their drink, working those features into their racial skills might be a good idea. And of course their culture is really a trading one so that'd need reflected too. And they'd certainly need a racial bonus to Con to reflect their hardiness.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Demetrio, those are good ideas.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Sherpa certainly are a distinct culture.

One thing to remember when attempting these parallels was that Howard was smart enough to make his universe more "realistic" by not making too many direct comparasons between ours and the Hyborian age. He made sure that it wasn't too "on the nose". He muddied things up, figured people would change and adapt, over the centuries, just like the face of the world has changed in any given region at which you look.

Thus, Howard's world changes, in the erruption of a second cataclysm. Man is set back to a savage state. Everything is forgotten. New cultures, countries, and people grow up where others, somewhat different from themselves, stood before.

Even before the cataclysm, Howard documents the changes the occur as the Hyborian age crumbles. Aquilonia, the mightiest nation on the face of the planet, never wins its battle with Nemedia nor the barbarian Picts. The Picts, the least advanced major culture of the entire Hyborian Age, end up taking over the world, swarming over the borders of mighty Aquilonia all the way down to Stygia. The Vanir and Cimmerians swarm south, through the Border Kingdom and Nemedia and end up ruling parts of Turan.

All this takes years, of course, like the fall of the Roman Empire. But, imagine the culture change that happens during that time.

Add a cataclysm to all of this, nearly wiping out mankind, and it's not a stretch to say that a Sherpa analogue, during the Hyborian Age, did live in the Himelia mountains, just north of Vendhya, where its frozen, ice capped mountain tops trail down into a balmy, almost tropical, inland sea area.

So...things were a bit different then. We're talking about a long, long time ago.

 

[Demetrio]

I'm uncertain about giving the Sherpa any bonus to Climb. This might seem odd, as they are nowadays reknowned high altitude mountaineers, but this is a result of western influence rather than cultural preference, if you see what I mean.

For a decent stereotype, I think I'd tend to:

Racial Features:

+2 Con -2 Wis (tough, inclined to impulsiveness)
+1 Racial Bonus to Bluff, Survival and Spot checks (fast talkers, hardy, sharp-eyed)
+2 Circumstance bonus to Survival, Spot and Listen checks made in hills or mountains (natural mountaineers - in the sense of being at home in the terrain)

Background Skills:

Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), Survival, Spot

Favoured Class: Borderer
Prohibited Classes: Scholar, Pirate, Nomad, Noble

 

[Supplement Four]

Bluff?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Bluff?

They are traders. Seems appropriate.

 

[treeplanter]

hum you interpretation is interesting Demetrio.

Vincent, question for you: So if I understand your post correctly, that would mean the map in the 2nd ed Corebook is actually not acurate?