High(er) Passage?

[phavoc]

While the Cr10,000 seems like a lot to the ordinary citizen, clearly there need to be more expensive passenger levels. Etihad just sold out (in 4 hours) their A380 suite-equipped flight from the US to the Middle East. The suite goes for $32k a flight. Plus there are nine other 'apartments' onboard that are smaller, but still private suites.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2015/03/08/etihad-sells-out-1st-jfk-abu-dhabi-penthouse-flight-as-critics-decry-subsidies/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

While the Cr10,000 seems like a lot to the ordinary citizen, clearly there need to be more expensive passenger levels. Etihad just sold out (in 4 hours) their A380 suite-equipped flight from the US to the Middle East. The suite goes for $32k a flight. Plus there are nine other 'apartments' onboard that are smaller, but still private suites.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2015/03/08/etihad-sells-out-1st-jfk-abu-dhabi-penthouse-flight-as-critics-decry-subsidies/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

count the number of squares in the stateroom, divide by 2 to get tonnage and divide that number by 4 tons, which is the size of a standard stateroom and multiply that by 10,000 credits to get the price of the passage.

 

[phavoc]

count the number of squares in the stateroom, divide by 2 to get tonnage and divide that number by 4 tons, which is the size of a standard stateroom and multiply that by 10,000 credits to get the price of the passage.

Flight time from JFK to Dubai is only 13hrs. In comparison a G5 goes for $7,500/hr. The A380 can make it without refueling, so you'd need to tack on a couple extra hours for the G5 (around $110,000 for the same trip). I did find the layout for the upper deck of the A380. It didn't show the dimensions, or the apartment at all. The main deck carries about 480 people, the upper deck 70.

But, to make the proper stateroom comparison, I would have used something like the Seven Seas Explorer suites. These puppies come in at a little less than 4000sq ft, (360 cubic meters or about 53Dtons). It's supposed to go for $5,000/night, per person. Assume an average flight time of 8 days for a passenger liner, and that would be $40,000 per person. But you'd be doing that in style and a lot of comfort.

 

[Anonymous]

What, if any, is the relationship between the $5000/night cost on a Seven Seas Explorer and the purchase and running cost of the ship? I'd kinda assume that the most luxurious forms of travel have a price arbitrarily deduced (read it actually costs this much but we're gonna charge you this plus that cos well, you can afford it and we can get away with it).

Now OK, I don't suppose the accounts of the SSE are readily available but if the cost of passage is a percentage of the cost of the ship then we have something more to work with in game.

 

[dragoner]

More likely market determines price, irl.

 

[atpollard]

count the number of squares in the stateroom, divide by 2 to get tonnage and divide that number by 4 tons, which is the size of a standard stateroom and multiply that by 10,000 credits to get the price of the passage.

Flight time from JFK to Dubai is only 13hrs. In comparison a G5 goes for $7,500/hr. The A380 can make it without refueling, so you'd need to tack on a couple extra hours for the G5 (around $110,000 for the same trip). I did find the layout for the upper deck of the A380. It didn't show the dimensions, or the apartment at all. The main deck carries about 480 people, the upper deck 70.

But, to make the proper stateroom comparison, I would have used something like the Seven Seas Explorer suites. These puppies come in at a little less than 4000sq ft, (360 cubic meters or about 53Dtons). It's supposed to go for $5,000/night, per person. Assume an average flight time of 8 days for a passenger liner, and that would be $40,000 per person. But you'd be doing that in style and a lot of comfort.

Just FYI: 1 Credit = $4* ... $40,000 per person is 10,000 credits.

* 1 credit = $1 when the game was first published (1977) ... that's where the original prices came from ... $1 (1977) = $4.03 (2015) [from an on-line Inflation calculator]

 

[phavoc]

What, if any, is the relationship between the $5000/night cost on a Seven Seas Explorer and the purchase and running cost of the ship? I'd kinda assume that the most luxurious forms of travel have a price arbitrarily deduced (read it actually costs this much but we're gonna charge you this plus that cos well, you can afford it and we can get away with it).

Now OK, I don't suppose the accounts of the SSE are readily available but if the cost of passage is a percentage of the cost of the ship then we have something more to work with in game.

That's a valid point, and I have not a clue. There are two suites onboard the ship. It's a 54000 ton ship that costs $450million. It's not a mega-cruise ship - passengers are about 750. According to their site it's going to be the highest space-to-passenger, and highest staff-to-passenger ship. It's targetted towards the very well-off person who wants to take an expensive cruise.

I've always thought that Traveller liners should/would be more like what the golden age of the transatlantic steamers were. First class passage on the Titanic was about $55,000 (or Cr13,750). The most expensive suites were $100k in today's dollars (or Cr25,000). Third class in the bowels cost you $900 (Cr225), as long as you were willing to share with 5 other people in bunks. Not exactly the best of passages, but there were 1,000 of the 3rd class onboard when she left England.

Just FYI: 1 Credit = $4* ... $40,000 per person is 10,000 credits.

* 1 credit = $1 when the game was first published (1977) ... that's where the original prices came from ... $1 (1977) = $4.03 (2015) [from an on-line Inflation calculator]

Thank you for the updated $$ to Cr listing. I used to have it pegged at 3 to 1, but didn't take inflation or anything like that into account. It's extremely helpful when making comparisons like this.

 

[dragoner]

Then add in the average Free Trader: smells like an old shoe, staffed by criminals, and it takes $40,000 to ride ...

 

[Anonymous]

Then add in the average Free Trader: smells like an old shoe, staffed by criminals, and it takes $40,000 to ride ...

Yup, which means the only people traveling on a free trader are the people your GM wants to make your life difficult

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder if a GM has let the crew of a free trader determine cost of passage? I hadn't thought about approaching it from that angle, last game I was playing FT crew we stopped looking for passengers once we had enough capital to buy the cargo you can make money on, passengers were just too much trouble!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

What, if any, is the relationship between the $5000/night cost on a Seven Seas Explorer and the purchase and running cost of the ship? I'd kinda assume that the most luxurious forms of travel have a price arbitrarily deduced (read it actually costs this much but we're gonna charge you this plus that cos well, you can afford it and we can get away with it).

Now OK, I don't suppose the accounts of the SSE are readily available but if the cost of passage is a percentage of the cost of the ship then we have something more to work with in game.

That's a valid point, and I have not a clue. There are two suites onboard the ship. It's a 54000 ton ship that costs $450million. It's not a mega-cruise ship - passengers are about 750. According to their site it's going to be the highest space-to-passenger, and highest staff-to-passenger ship. It's targetted towards the very well-off person who wants to take an expensive cruise.

I've always thought that Traveller liners should/would be more like what the golden age of the transatlantic steamers were. First class passage on the Titanic was about $55,000 (or Cr13,750). The most expensive suites were $100k in today's dollars (or Cr25,000). Third class in the bowels cost you $900 (Cr225), as long as you were willing to share with 5 other people in bunks. Not exactly the best of passages, but there were 1,000 of the 3rd class onboard when she left England.

Just FYI: 1 Credit = $4* ... $40,000 per person is 10,000 credits.

* 1 credit = $1 when the game was first published (1977) ... that's where the original prices came from ... $1 (1977) = $4.03 (2015) [from an on-line Inflation calculator]

Thank you for the updated $$ to Cr listing. I used to have it pegged at 3 to 1, but didn't take inflation or anything like that into account. It's extremely helpful when making comparisons like this.

What are the chance of a Traveller starship hitting a glancing blow against an asteroid, and then not having enough lifeboats for all the passengers?

 

[atpollard]

What are the chance of a Traveller starship hitting a glancing blow against an asteroid, and then not having enough lifeboats for all the passengers?

Better than the chance of needing to abandon ship in those lifeboats.
Crew suits up, passengers to survival bubbles, holes patched in an hour, rescue ship from world in a few hours (if needed).

Most leaks are slow and there is no 'sinking' in space.

 

[AndrewW]

I hadn't thought about approaching it from that angle, last game I was playing FT crew we stopped looking for passengers once we had enough capital to buy the cargo you can make money on, passengers were just too much trouble!

Cargo can be just as much trouble as passengers. That container of ore you be shipping turns out to contain a rare avian life form that gets loose...

 

[phavoc]

What are the chance of a Traveller starship hitting a glancing blow against an asteroid, and then not having enough lifeboats for all the passengers?

Better than the chance of needing to abandon ship in those lifeboats.
Crew suits up, passengers to survival bubbles, holes patched in an hour, rescue ship from world in a few hours (if needed).

Most leaks are slow and there is no 'sinking' in space.

For my Traveller designs I have a rule that says over 50 passengers carried, you must have either life boats or small craft available for all passengers and crew. Every occupant gets an emergency space suit that will allow them to evacuate a ship/area if necessary. And compartments themselves have an emergency capability as well.

Ships are going to sometimes be many hours, if not days away from potential rescue when you consider the entirety of a system. If a ship misjumps and arrives 24hrs short of it's intended destination and is having an emergency help isn't 100D away. I don't see that all ship traffic will always be close to some place that has emergency equipment and personnel ready to respond in an instant. And ships won't always have nice, neat emergencies that can be patched in an hour.

Disasters are just that - disasters. Human hubris has yet to overcome bad luck, dangerous environments, or stupid people. There's no reason to think that people will magically get past all of our current failings in the future. Not even Star Trek got past all of them.

 

[dragoner]

I wonder if a GM has let the crew of a free trader determine cost of passage? I hadn't thought about approaching it from that angle, last game I was playing FT crew we stopped looking for passengers once we had enough capital to buy the cargo you can make money on, passengers were just too much trouble!

I let the player's modify the price as well as the market, as well as their actions come into play; if you look like some greasy fellow in a rusty white van saying "hop onboard!" Things can and will be sketchy, so from Book 3, Worlds and Adventures so long ago: "The typical methods used in life by 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work in Traveller; instead, travellers must boldly plan and execute daring schemes for the acquisition of wealth and power."

 

[atpollard]

What are the chance of a Traveller starship hitting a glancing blow against an asteroid, and then not having enough lifeboats for all the passengers?

Better than the chance of needing to abandon ship in those lifeboats.
Crew suits up, passengers to survival bubbles, holes patched in an hour, rescue ship from world in a few hours (if needed).

Most leaks are slow and there is no 'sinking' in space.

For my Traveller designs I have a rule that says over 50 passengers carried, you must have either life boats or small craft available for all passengers and crew. Every occupant gets an emergency space suit that will allow them to evacuate a ship/area if necessary. And compartments themselves have an emergency capability as well.

Ships are going to sometimes be many hours, if not days away from potential rescue when you consider the entirety of a system. If a ship misjumps and arrives 24hrs short of it's intended destination and is having an emergency help isn't 100D away. I don't see that all ship traffic will always be close to some place that has emergency equipment and personnel ready to respond in an instant. And ships won't always have nice, neat emergencies that can be patched in an hour.

Disasters are just that - disasters. Human hubris has yet to overcome bad luck, dangerous environments, or stupid people. There's no reason to think that people will magically get past all of our current failings in the future. Not even Star Trek got past all of them.

Please describe the disaster that requires abandoning ship that wouldn't be better dealt with by using the ship as a giant life raft until help arrives?

Don't get me wrong, abandoning ship in a life raft is seriously cool ...
... I just have trouble with a ship jumping in and suffering a catastrophic failure (after arrival, because a disaster before jump just leaves you drifting at the 100 D limit and a disaster during jump leaves you dead) while also being too far for help to arrive and on a trajectory into the sun.
That starts to snap those suspenders of disbelief.

What event in Traveller makes it essential to escape from a ship in a small craft?
Fusion power plants do not explode.
MD and JD are just inert machinery without power.
Most life threatening disasters would not provide adequate warning to evacuate.

I just have trouble coming up with a plausible crisis.

 

[Anonymous]

I think Tom is transposing the Titanic to Traveller (asteroid = iceberg, not enough lifeboats - women and children (men in drag) first).

But aside from that, most catastrophic failures involving starships and player characters I'd say will include vicious GMs and poorly thought out tactics in the resolution of inter-starship conflict.

I never figured out why so many PC's wanted to duke it out in starships, seems like a surefire way of dying...

 

[CosmicGamer]

I just have trouble with a ship jumping in and suffering a catastrophic failure (after arrival, because a disaster before jump just leaves you drifting at the 100 D limit and a disaster during jump leaves you dead) while also being too far for help to arrive and on a trajectory into the sun.

Lot's I could go into on this topic but as it is veering off the main topic I'll try to stick to the distance to help portion being discussed.

My belief, and part of my own personal "Traveller for Dummies" document, is

Departures are via the trailing side of the location you are leaving (the path just traveled by the location as it orbits).
Arrivals are via the leading side (direction the location is traveling as it orbits)

This helps separate traffic even in systems without flight control.

I'm no whiz at the science and math for acceleration and deceleration but I think this decreases the time and fuel for both departures and arrivals. Thus help from the destination can be provided sooner?

In busy systems, someone arriving before you, or more likely after you, can lend support.

In a busy system, support craft could be traveling inside the 100d limit near the approved arrival point.

I don't know all the rules and physics, but I think if it is done with paranoia and accurately, one could plan for a possible disaster and have a ships vector "drift" to the destination if it is disabled when it comes out of jump.

 

[Epicenter]

While the Cr10,000 seems like a lot to the ordinary citizen, clearly there need to be more expensive passenger levels.

Like everything else in Traveller, prices are highly abstract.

Why does that rifle cost Cr400? What if I hunted bargains and bought it on sale? What if I went to a repo auction? What if I had visited planet Failed State and bought the rifle at some gun bazaar there for the cost of a survival ration? Conversely, what if I bought it at some really upscale store that sells hunting equipment to nobles? The same rifle new might cost anywhere from Cr50 to Cr600. If I wanted to be a jerk, I might say "Traveller has no rules to model a used equipment as opposed to a brand new one, so they're the same, so why can't I get everything at half price?"

Even the prices on middle passages I think should vary more; a middle passage on a passenger liner is going to be very different experience from a middle passage on a freighter.

 

[Reynard]

I always thought you use the standard price because it makes a game simpler. The concept of price variance is definitely in the realm story device such as bartering for an item you really need on some back world or using the Haggling in a bazaar (Persuade) under some of the conditions mentioned in the last post. As with any game, don't abuse by going in to every shop and store and demand the clerk behind the counter MUST haggle every item's price.

I see no reason the players can't try to dicker down a stateroom price if they can roleplay it. Rundown ship with few passengers signing up and the captain is desperate to get off world should gain a few DMs as you convince him to lower the price to get at least some money. Then again, that could go the other way when your players NEED to get off world (imperial entanglements) and the captain of the only available ship willing can demand more.