Hey! Lets discuss the G'Koth!

[Hash]

Hash,

thats going to extremes. You know I did not imply that, and there is another fleet, with a ships across 3 PL's, its the EA :wink:

I know - I said so in my post - Still the arguement has been made so am re-iterating it here. If someone wants to expand on it feel free...it's getting difficult to do this on my own

Well actually there are a fair few coming out with reasons against now (I may have to stop this devil's advocate business - I even got Hiff to agree a bit with my point 2! )

 

[Da Boss]

Whilst there are arguments about varients of other ships - the post is about this ship ? Which already has fluff, stats etc in the ACTA cannon - ? is that correct - Others would not have?

 

[Hash]

There is also budgetary considerations for Mongoose...or do they just want to sell one model

Not arguing against there is good justification for variants in general just that this one isn't suitable! Try as you might you're not getting me into a history debate Tank

 

[Hash]

For info

Here are Morgoth's proposed stats, for those who couldn't find them:

Speed: 6 Damage: 40/11 Craft: 1 Gorith flight
Turn: 1/45 Crew: 45/12 Special Rules: Jump Point
Hull: 5 Troops: 2 In Service: 2236+
Weapon Range Arc A Special
Medium Laser Cannon 18 B 4 AP, Beam, Double Damage
Twin Particle Array 8 F 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 A 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 P 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 S 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Light Pulse Cannon 8 F 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 A 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 P 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 S 4

4AD Beam? 40+ hits? All round firepower and a flight as well?!

Slight aside but I can see why some Narn platers want this puppy - it looks like and awesomely good Raid choice! Would you still want a variant at Raid , even if it wasn't as good as this one?

These were reasons for...

1) It has existing stats in a mongoose created product

So do a number of other ships (S&P Ghosts of Omelos, Tournament List stats to "fix" Avioki and Warlock and a few others), other variants. What makes the G'Koth a better choice than any of them? After all the Dilgar ain't seen no lovin' for a while...why not focus on variants for them rather than mess with this already very popular fleet.

2) It has a ready made model available

So would all the variants in the sources I mentioned - make it easier to introduce sure but isn't a reason TO introduce it, just a lack of a barrier.

3) G'Quans look cool (ok, this isn't the best argument, but I like it)

True - countered I think by argument against point 2

4) Raid has been stated as the achilles heal of Narn, and Battle isn't great either, a ship that Narn players believe is pretty good apart from speed would partly adress this perceived weakness

Woah hoss - there are achilles heel all over the place for all sorts of fleets - skirmish or patrol for the Minbari anyone? If you really want to shift ACTA to make good and decent choices at every PL there are races in need of MUCH more serious attention than Narn.

5) **Censored**

Some Narn players have indicated there are already happy with their selection

6) it's not unbalancing, and it's not unheard of for varients across 3 levels

Maybe it is unbalancing - not the ship necessarily but the addition or notch of another good choice in a PL. Remember ACTA is balanced across PLs so while it may not be unbalancing at 5pt Raid - it may disadvantage other lists that are better suited to fighting at higher PLs

7) It will lead to more fleet diversity, rather than the "Bat Squad" fleet we usually see

This is a fault in the PL system IMO rather than something to be fixed by adding more ships or maybe introduce ship rarity traits as mentioned before.

8 ) New players or tournament/demo onlookers will recognize it and be more tempted to get into the game[/quote]

Maybe - but we can still get G'Quans on the table by making *current* variants and the real MCoy good choices...new players may be quickly put off if the iconic ships from the show aren't nearly as good as they expect and the same model has lots of different stats for them to look through could be confusing.

 

[Tank]

Hash you are such a spoilsport :lol:

Ok well as we all know the ship already exists and is mongoose approved

The model exists

The fluff exists

the reason exists

Please let this ship truly exist :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

IS there going to be a vote again?

 

[Tank]

Vote?? Should be a demand. :lol:

 

[Reaverman]

Updated Reasons AGAINST the G'Koth (in 1st edition)

1) It has been a purposeful design decision in 1st edition to balance fleets at different levels. Narn excel at Skirmish but have reasonable choices at Raid...they don't need to be very good at Raid as well (as in have lots of good choices) and this defeats the design principle of balancing fleets through and ACROSS PLs and not just at 5 point raid.

At Raid, the Narn are not that strong. They have ships that can 'Tank' damage, but the are either 'Weak' or short ranged. The only long range craft, is the Dag'Kar. Which has 'Shoot me, I'm an E-Mine carrier'

2) While I too would like iconic ships to feature, it should *mean* something when they come out on the table. That argument could naturally lead to a Patrol and even Skirmish level variant of a G'Quan...after all why not? The iconic ships are cool looking but the other ships have a role to play too, we don't need one model/token to rule them all syndrome.

No, I thnk there would be a limit of the PL's it could span. I'd say Raid, Battle, and War max

3) Ships are built with a specific purpose in mind and while there may be an aspiration to fulfill a multi-role capability a carrier is still a carrier, a destroyer a destroyer etc. The G'Quan was described as a Narn "heavy cruiser" on the show and their "dreadnought" feel should be reflected in the ship design and it's variants...however many people have suggested that history (and fluff) disputes this argument am leaving for completeness.

What about 'Light' cruiser, meaning its been downgraded and a lower hull to say '5'

4) If the existing G'Quan and variants is not a viable choice (and a battle level ship should be considered at Raid) it makes more sense to suggest an S&P article that would revise those stats that necessarily a new "variant" with the normal ships being one no-one took. You wouldn't have any more G'Quans on the table it would just be G'Koths!

I dont see a major problem having a few varients, as long as they have a distinct function. In other words, making a G'Koth might be fine. But a Rongoth E-Mine carrier, might be a little silly.

5) Lets not try and solve perceived problems with what is argueably abuse of the PL system (taking 10 of 1 good ship e.g. Ka'Tan) by needlessly adding to ship selection and agree to take "balanced" fleets instead.

Agreed, creating something like the Narn version of the Prefect would be silly

 

[Hash]

Time to pass on the torch me thinks...anyone else want this decidedly dodgy reasoning and fluff that amounts to, "we want it please"

Honestly chaps I thought you could put up a more cohesive argument than the one-liners you've been giving me to work with

To be fair I actually I agree with you but that's beside the point!

 

[Hash]

Updated Reasons AGAINST the G'Koth (in 1st edition)

1) It has been a purposeful design decision in 1st edition to balance fleets at different levels. Narn excel at Skirmish but have reasonable choices at Raid...they don't need to be very good at Raid as well (as in have lots of good choices) and this defeats the design principle of balancing fleets through and ACROSS PLs and not just at 5 point raid.

At Raid, the Narn are not that strong. They have ships that can 'Tank' damage, but the are either 'Weak' or short ranged. The only long range craft, is the Dag'Kar. Which has 'Shoot me, I'm an E-Mine carrier'

2) While I too would like iconic ships to feature, it should *mean* something when they come out on the table. That argument could naturally lead to a Patrol and even Skirmish level variant of a G'Quan...after all why not? The iconic ships are cool looking but the other ships have a role to play too, we don't need one model/token to rule them all syndrome.

No, I thnk there would be a limit of the PL's it could span. I'd say Raid, Battle, and War max

3) Ships are built with a specific purpose in mind and while there may be an aspiration to fulfill a multi-role capability a carrier is still a carrier, a destroyer a destroyer etc. The G'Quan was described as a Narn "heavy cruiser" on the show and their "dreadnought" feel should be reflected in the ship design and it's variants...however many people have suggested that history (and fluff) disputes this argument am leaving for completeness.

What about 'Light' cruiser, meaning its been downgraded and a lower hull to say '5'

4) If the existing G'Quan and variants is not a viable choice (and a battle level ship should be considered at Raid) it makes more sense to suggest an S&P article that would revise those stats that necessarily a new "variant" with the normal ships being one no-one took. You wouldn't have any more G'Quans on the table it would just be G'Koths!

I dont see a major problem having a few varients, as long as they have a distinct function. In other words, making a G'Koth might be fine. But a Rongoth E-Mine carrier, might be a little silly.

5) Lets not try and solve perceived problems with what is argueably abuse of the PL system (taking 10 of 1 good ship e.g. Ka'Tan) by needlessly adding to ship selection and agree to take "balanced" fleets instead.

Agreed, creating something like the Narn version of the Prefect would be silly

Actually I take that back - good counterpoints mostly! Playing Devil's advocate sucks...

 

[Silvereye]

1) It has been a purposeful design decision in 1st edition to balance fleets at different levels. Narn excel at Skirmish but have reasonable choices at Raid...they don't need to be very good at Raid as well (as in have lots of good choices) and this defeats the design principle of balancing fleets through and ACROSS PLs and not just at 5 point raid.

At Raid, the Narn are not that strong. They have ships that can 'Tank' damage, but the are either 'Weak' or short ranged. The only long range craft, is the Dag'Kar. Which has 'Shoot me, I'm an E-Mine carrier'

To be fair, it is currently more like ignore me unless you want to launch fighters, as I'm not carrying Ionic Burst mines... There is a time and a place for Dag'Kars, but they usually get plenty of quality time on the shelf.

 

[H]

HEYYY, their is an unnoficial rongoth carrying e-mine varient in the narn sourcebook Me and morg did, it's a great ship ;-)

 

[Hash]

HEYYY, their is an unnoficial rongoth carrying e-mine varient in the narn sourcebook Me and morg did, it's a great ship ;-)

Forgive the aside but that source book you and Morgoth put together was an awesome read - is it hosted somewhere? Shame to see new players miss out...it should be in print! Easily as good as the EM War stuff and likewise RBax's excellent Dilgar Wars supplement should definitely not be overlooked!

As for the G'Koth - invigorating and civil debate everyone (although by no means over :twisted: I've started to half convince myself ), good thing for me it was a "slow" day at work!

 

[H]

It was on my site, but I clearde my webspace, will get it up again soon though. and yes, it should be in print

 

[Reaverman]

HEYYY, their is an unnoficial rongoth carrying e-mine varient in the narn sourcebook Me and morg did, it's a great ship ;-)

Forgive the aside but that source book you and Morgoth put together was an awesome read - is it hosted somewhere? Shame to see new players miss out...it should be in print! Easily as good as the EM War stuff and likewise RBax's excellent Dilgar Wars supplement should definitely not be overlooked!

As for the G'Koth - invigorating and civil debate everyone (although by no means over :twisted: I've started to half convince myself ), good thing for me it was a "slow" day at work!

I have a copy on my Laptop

 

[Celisasu]

Speed: 6 Damage: 40/11 Craft: 1 Gorith flight
Turn: 1/45 Crew: 45/12 Special Rules: Jump Point
Hull: 5 Troops: 2 In Service: 2236+
Weapon Range Arc A Special
Medium Laser Cannon 18 B 4 AP, Beam, Double Damage
Twin Particle Array 8 F 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 A 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 P 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Twin Particle Array 8 S 6 Twin-Linked, Weak
Light Pulse Cannon 8 F 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 A 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 P 4
Light Pulse Cannon 8 S 4

Someone said earlier in the thread that this is too strong. I can prove that incorrect and without using broken ships like the Prefect.

I'm going to use the Centurion.

The Centurian has 35 damage and 38 crew to the 40 damage and 45 crew of the G'Koth. So the G'Koth has a slight edge here. Both are Hull 5 and have no interceptors. Both have the Jump Point special trait and nothing else. The G'Koth gets speed 6 and 1/45 turn. The Centurian has speed 8 and 2/45 turns so the edge on maneuverability goes to the Centurian.

The G'Koth has a 4AD beam. But it's 18", AP, and Boresite.

The Centurian's beam is only 2AD but it's 25", SAP, and has a F arc.

The G'Koth has all around guns but only 6AD of weak Twin Linked and 4AD of no special traits. All 8".

The Centurian has a 12" AP Double Damage gun with 6AD in the F arc.

It's secondaries are 8" like the G'Koth but with 10AD in the F Arc and 6AD in the P and S arcs. All Twin Linked.....and not weak.

Overall the Centurian is only slightly less durabable than a G'Koth and lacks rear firepower but balances this with a nastier armament, range, and superior maneuverability.

And oddly, the Centurian has more troops than the G'Koth. 4 troops to the G'Koth's 2.

 

[Hash]

I said it looked "awesomely" good, not "too good" but I'll bite

My main point was not that I felt the ship was unbalanced, I don't really think it is when considered as a "Raid" ship but rather that the Narn fleet itself is biased towards play at a certain PL...and this choice changes that somewhat. I think it's important to that ship stats should not be considered in isolation but what part of a fleet they could slot into...

Case in point - a 5 point Battle game with Narn...I would be very tempted, were I a beardy wargamer , to take 5 G'Koth's and 10 Ka'Tans or something like that...scary huh?

Taking a similar approach with Centauri, they could go with a Prefect or Sulust for the 5 Raid choices but Skirmish is less obvious (Maximus is good but not nearly as good as a Ka'Tan IMO and Darkners will last a v. short time against that many Narn beams). Though I appreciate the arguement (and agree) that at 5 point RAID the G'Koth becomes a possible (if still unlikely) choice vs. 2 Ka'Tans and therefore adding a useful element of choice in something that is otherwise a no brainer

At risk of massive tangent - my real problem here is with the whole PL system and the philosophy of balancing fleets rather than individual ships (I personally would like a Raid ship to be very close if not exactly equal to every other Raid level ship in terms of usefulness if not role and would prefer high PL bouts with a low number of FAP (i.e. 1 point Armageddon level battles) because of swarm problems.

My examples are indeed illustrated with ships that need to be tweaked though, more for emphasis than anything else, and I appreciate you highlighting that (with you're use of the more "balanced" Centurion instead) - I also find your comparative breakdown v. useful - thanks for that

 

[Celisasu]

I've seen people make points that a ship is too weak by comparing it to a Prefect or a pre-nerf Sag. I've never understood that since everyone knows those ships are broken. It's always better to compare a ship to a solid but not broken design which I consider the Centurian to be(it's just that who's going to take it when the Sullust, or even more importantly the Prefect exist).

Granted I'd never take the G'Koth except during a breakdown of points situation since two Ka'Tans are better than a G'Koth but at least this gives the Narn a viable Raid breakdown. As it is, the Narn really hurt because their Battle and Raid lineups are both weak which gives them a serious problem in Battle level engagements.

And I believe that all ships of all priorities should be balanced. Aka if a ship is Raid, it should be comparable to all other Raid ships in power(not that one Raid ship can't be easily smooshed by another Raid ship if you have a specialist design going against it's optimum opponent, I don't mind things like that).

 

[Target]

I've never liked the balance through the priority system either since most people tend to play raid games because they only last 2hrs & gives a nice range of ships to use.
I thought the G'Koth might of been overpowered but i misread & thought it was SAP not AP which makes a huge difference.
It covers the lack of a beam caple ship in the raid priority as well.
The T'loth is a Troop ship, Rogoth not really sure of it's role, D'Kar is a Fire Support, T'Rann a carrier. The Narn need a attack ship at raid.

 

[Target]

On the Sulust thing, it just has too many hits should closer to the Hyperion in hits. I'd still take Sulusts at 28 hits as it's one of my fav ships & it still would preform the same job.
The Rongoth should have more firepower eg Heavy Pulse cannon becomes twinlink, dd