Help!! I'm drowning.....

Garuda

Mongoose
Couldn't find any rules on drowning, but I did find rules on suffocation which basically causes 1d6 damage per round.

However, an average character taking 1d6 damage every round will drown in a matter of seconds. If the character is already injured he could even possibly drown in a single six second round.

Are there actual rules (other than the suffocation rules) for drowning? Do you have any house rules that work well?

I was thinking of a character without air having to make an Endurance check (8+) every round - after the first failure, then he begins taking 1d6 damage per round. How does that sound?
 
you would die in seconds from drowning, the question being, how long can you hold your breath before you start drowning? That isn't in the rules, but should be about 1.5-2 minutes, on average. You could start your endurance checks after 1.5 mins, but do include a progressive -ve modifier, as no-one can go one forever.
 
In cold and temperate waters, you will also begin suffering damage from hypothermia, to boot - look up cold temperature damage.

And yes, if a character falls into the ocean, he could potentially be a goner within seconds.
 
Garuda said:
Couldn't find any rules on drowning, but I did find rules on suffocation which basically causes 1d6 damage per round.

However, an average character taking 1d6 damage every round will drown in a matter of seconds. If the character is already injured he could even possibly drown in a single six second round.

Are there actual rules (other than the suffocation rules) for drowning? Do you have any house rules that work well?

I was thinking of a character without air having to make an Endurance check (8+) every round - after the first failure, then he begins taking 1d6 damage per round. How does that sound?

The endurance check sounds reasonable - but have it increase in difficulty every round.
 
Yes, I would also use Endurance checks of increasing difficulty.

However, if the difficulty increases each round, the character would need
a 12+ after only 4 rounds or 24 seconds, which seems a bit hard, becau-
se most people are able to hold their breath for between one and two mi-
nutes.

Therefore I would increase the difficulty only every fourth round (= 8/8/8,
9/9/9, 10/10/10, 11/11/11), so that the character needs 12+ after a total
of 12 rounds or 72 seconds.

Once the character has failed a roll, he begins to take the 1d6 damage per
round.
 
Well, the endurance check doesn't have to start out at Average difficulty.

Holding your breath is an EASY check, but after 4-5 combat rounds it starts to get harder.

How about:

Each character can hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to their Endurance score. After that, they must make an Athletics (Endurance) check every other round to keep holding their breath. The task starts off as Easy and gets 1 step harder each 2 rounds. Once the character fails their check, they begin to suffocate (drown).

And at 1d6 damage per round, the average person will take 4 rounds to go unconscious and 6 rounds to die.
 
I'm allow the character to hold their breather a number of rounds equal to their END characteristic (not the modifier, the actual score itself). From there an increasingly difficult END check starting at easy.
 
hmm, I seam to recall something like this being covered in another thread, or maybe it was another site where I discussed Hypoxia.

[myphilosophy]

First, I don't think I'd implement additional rules and rolls when the majority of the time the result will be the same as the books rules. See Note 2

[rant]

As I always say, simulating real life is pretty much impossible to do in a few die rolls and there has to be a compromise between complex game mechanics and playability.

Did the character know they were going into the water and take a big gulp of air so that they could hold their breath longer? Were they unconscious (not damaged, just drugged) and sucking in water as soon as they were put under? Perhaps, it's best for the GM to make some decisions instead of having detailed rules. The more detail and complexity you add, the more the rules will break in certain circumstances instead of bend.

[/rant]

Of course, it is also up to each group to decide for them self where that line is when the rules stop becoming an aid and start impeding game play.

[/myphilosophy]
[myanalysis]

With 1d6 damage, an average character would take at least a few rounds to become unconscious and worst case rolling all 6's still requires 4 rolls = 24 seconds for an average character to die. With an average of 3.5 pts of damage per roll, I believe it is 6 rounds = 36 seconds. On the other extreme, a low roller who rolls all 1's would last 21 rounds = over two minutes.

Perhaps 24 seconds is too low, but is > 2 min too much?

[some questions for us to ponder]

How long is realistic between no longer being able to hold your breath and unconsciousness? Between unconsciousness and death? How damaged is a person who goes without air and goes unconscious, how about going without air and 'dying' ie reaching the point that their heart stops, but then is pulled out of the water and revived?

[/some questions for us to ponder]
[/myanalysis]
[possibilities]

HOLDING BREATH
No endurance roll: A person can hold their breath for [Endurance x 6 sec] + 1min. This results in a range of 1min 6 sec on the extreme low end and 2min 30 sec for someone with a whopping 15 for dex. An average character would be holding their breath for 1min 42 sec.

For those that just have to roll dice: A person can hold their breath for [Endurance roll x 6 sec] + 1min.

Perhaps even [Whatever value your gaming group decides (for this example 1min 45 sec)] + [Endurance roll effect (positive for successful rolls, negative for unsuccessful ones) x 6 sec]

These can also have GM DMs for special cases such as the difference between someone knowing they are going underwater taking a larger gulp of air and someone that doesn't expect it, a person exerting them self (possibly to get out of the water) and using up oxygen faster or someone staying calm.

[Fact or fiction?]

When holding your breath ends does unconsciousness begin? Not necessarily. The longer you hold your breath, the closer you get to the breath-hold breakpoint where you can no longer resist the bodies breathing reflex and you start to breath in water while conscious. Or, you may go unconscious and the bodies breathing reflex will take over.

How do you determine which occurred? Did the person hold their breath to the point of passing out (game terms = 2 stats reduced to 0?) or is the person still conscious and just can't resist breathing? (game = no damage?) In either case they are sucking water into the lungs right? So it shouldn't matter?

Whether unconscious or conscious, the body knows not to let the water into the lungs so it will do it's best to send that refreshing gulp of water into the stomach and not the lungs. At some point after unconsciousness the laryngospasm relaxes. But how long after? And wait, when did that person that was able to hold there breath until they reached the breath-hold breakpoint and then started experiencing laryngospasm fall unconscious?

At some point, either while holding your breath or after, the brain will say it's time to take a vacation because their just isn't enough oxygen. This is when unconsciousness occurs.

From one medical web site
Cells of the brain will start to die within a few minutes if they are deprived of oxygen.
Another
The brain will die after approximately six minutes without oxygen.

[/Fact or fiction?]
[/possibilities]

[Conclusion]

Sorry, it is way too much detail for me to delve into any further at the moment but maybe some of you can use the information in some way.

The game mechanics may not be different if you are drowning or suffocating.

See http://www.caregiver.org/caregiver/jsp/content_node.jsp?nodeid=575 for information on possible cognitive and physical symptoms even after a person has recovered consciousness.

[/Conclusion]

[Notes]
Note 1: An average character has no positive or negative DM's and has 7's for all characteristics.
Note 2: I believe an endurance roll of 8 with no DM's is done a little under 50% of the time for an average character so the majority will fail on the first attempt. These endurance rolls are only gaining the character a few seconds before they would start taking damage.
[/Notes]
 
I'm not sure where this idea came from that a "normal" person can hold their breath for over a minute and a half.

Go ahead, take a deep breath and see how long you can hold it. Most of us can't get over 1 minute (many of us probably can't go 30 seconds).

A TRAINED swimmer or diver can hold their breath much longer, but a "normal, untrained person" probably not.

I agree that using the Athletics (Endurance) skill should be a benefit, perhaps a significant benefit.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I'm not sure where this idea came from that a "normal" person can hold their breath for over a minute and a half.
Not under normal conditions, but in a drowning situation the alternative to
holding one's breath is death. :wink:
 
Small thought, if PC's are experienced spacers of any sort surely that would impact on breath holding too? Seems likely that with vacc suit training you'd have practised emergency drills with low or no oxygen? Perhaps vacc suit/battledress skills should offer positive dm's similar to athletics?
 
A very reasonable assumption.

As part of your Vacc Suit certification (Vacc Suit 0 skill) you have to be able to don your Vacc Suit while holding your breath... Makes sense to me!
 
ScottyG said:
Small thought, if PC's are experienced spacers of any sort surely that would impact on breath holding too? Seems likely that with vacc suit training you'd have practised emergency drills with low or no oxygen? Perhaps vacc suit/battledress skills should offer positive dm's similar to athletics?
How would you accomplish the low or no oxygen environment?

pump all the air out?

replace the O2 with something else?

As someone who has been through chem warfare training and been to the gas chamber many a time... that alone is horrible... now try finding a way to do this without O2 at all.

Also, I wonder where this theory of "If you don't have your suit helmet you can hold your breath in space for a minute or so." I mean the temp in space is like "freeze you solid in a few seconds" cold, your eyes alone I would imagine freeze fairly quickly, etc.

Makes for great Sci-Fi but I personally don't think it's very accurate.
 
GamerDude said:
...Also, I wonder where this theory of "If you don't have your suit helmet you can hold your breath in space for a minute or so." I mean the temp in space is like "freeze you solid in a few seconds" cold, your eyes alone I would imagine freeze fairly quickly, etc.

Makes for great Sci-Fi but I personally don't think it's very accurate.
Space is cold because it is a near vacumm - which also means it doesn't conduct temperature well - so freezing is a lesser problem (though the lack of pressure will make water boil away - especially in the mouth ;) )

Actually heat might pose a greater danger - if exposed to light radiation - the lack of media would at the very least cause severe sunburns and probably damage the eyes more permanently.

Running out of oxygen especially with the lungs absorbing the O2 - means unconsciousness in 15s or so (as opposed to unconsciousness in drowning typically due first to CO2 buildup causing involunatry breathing and resultant lack of O2).

Skin and tissues tension prevent immediate outgassing, and unless the blood pressure is abnormally low (shock?) the blood will not boil quickly.

Swelling and burst capillaries are likely though (temporary - though painful) given a good fraction of a minute.

A minute or two is all one is likely to get though. NASA had some info on this I read a while back... not sure what kind of testing has been done to confirm these theories...

(oh, as opposed to drowning - one should not hold ones breath (would damage lungs - and ears)).
 
BP said:
(oh, as opposed to drowning - one should not hold ones breath (would damage lungs - and ears)).
Besides, without a way to close your nose airtight, holding your breath in
a vacuum would not make that much sense ... :wink:
 
dang it.. ive looked throught the MTB, CSC, all the supplements i have and i cant find stats for...

a nose clip used for swimming.
 
Work on the assumption that basic headgear for swimming, namely swim goggles and a pince-nez (the plastic or rubber nose plugs), cost Cr. 20 and are available from TL 6.

They're otherwise available as standard equipment with any neoprene wetsuit or drysuit, and the costs of same are incorporated in the cost along with the cost of the snorkel, flippers, neutral buoyancy belt, cowl and so on.
 
BP said:
In space you have no hands? :shock:
Try to get into your vacc suit while using one hand to keep your nose
closed, and please make a video of the attempt for You Tube ... :lol:
 
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