[Hawkmoon] Sorcery problems

[Astromancer]

I'm okay with advanced tech and magic being conected. The Hawkmoon novels were as much Planetary Romancer as Post-Disaster Sci-Fi, it fact Science Fantasy is a solid term for the setting. But the spells in sorcery are just wrong.

Granted, Bowgentle is the only character who uses cast spells (his spoken Rune to put Hawkmoon asleep). It was also obvious that the other "Sorcerors" were conventional "Mad Scientist" types, techno-alchemists really. But psionic are refered to in the books. Shouldn't there be spells to simulate low level psi powers? Especially telepathy and ESP?

This game need a Scientific Socery Sourcebook. It should cover mutants, natural/accedental and the products of intended genewarping. Lots more spells, especially those that would make a being soceror a viable character. Psionics as sorcery, science, and mutation. The baroque socerous tech of this world, and the more mundane but still bizaar leftovers from the ancients.

Life in Science Enclaves, the place to find PC availible Socery and Techno-fantastic relics, should also get a look in.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

Yes, but there should not be spells, say as per 'RuneQuest'. In the 'Hawkmoon' setting psionics would be "secret archane mind-bending techniques" (OK, it would seem as though they were "magic" to an ignorant viewer - but they are still explicable science, albeit mad wacky science).

Magical grimoires of eldrich, other planar incantations à la the usual fantasy mode don't seem to fit the setting, as I see it.

Regards

 

[The King]

I agree, there is no spell or mind power because this is a world of law.

Hawkmoon is a parody of what science brings and everything that is supernatural (runestaff excepted) comes from science.

It doesn't mean you can't have telepaty for instance, but this always will be the result of a device or machinery, not a power per se.

 

[Loz]

I agree, there is no spell or mind power because this is a world of law.

Ah, but is it? Its been a debate for some time, and I'm not entirely convinced that it is a Lawful world. Just because science dominates does not necessarily make it a Lawful plane at all, and there's plenty of evidence of Chaos infringing (mutants, for example, and some of the sorcery, especially the Machine of the Black Jewel, is definitely in breach of what one might hold as absolutely lawful physics). And if there is no mind power, how does one explain the Wraith Folk of Soryandum or the Great Good Ones of D'nark (both of whom exhibit mind powers)?

To my mind, it is a plane that is tending towards Law, having crawled its way out of a lengthy period of Chaos. The presence of the Runestaff is introducing elements of stability, but I really don't believe that Moorcock created the Tragic Millenium as an overtly Lawful plane. If anything, its been forsaken by the Higher Powers and is on the brink of catastrophe - hence the Runestaff.

That said, it IS a plane where a mad Lord of Law, like Miggea, would have an absolute riot - so the possibilties are certainly there.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

And if there is no mind power, how does one explain the Wraith Folk of Soryandum or the Great Good Ones of D'nark (both of whom exhibit mind powers)?

They could have developed their minds through training or selective techniques - on the other hand, what there is no evidence of is spell use (as per most Fantasy RPGs) on their part.

Regards

 

[Loz]

Dear All,

And if there is no mind power, how does one explain the Wraith Folk of Soryandum or the Great Good Ones of D'nark (both of whom exhibit mind powers)?

They could have developed their minds through training or selective techniques - on the other hand, what there is no evidence of is spell use (as per most Fantasy RPGs) on their part.

Regards

Its rather more than that: both have transcended the physical limitations of the body to become something else entirely.

On sorcery - from 'The Jewel in the Skull'

"This is our mentality machine," Baron Kalan said proudly. "This is what will test you."
"It is very large," said Hawkmoon, stepping toward it.

"One of our largest. It has to be. It must perform complex
tasks. This is the result of scientific sorcery, my lord Duke,
none of your hit-and-miss spell singing you find on the Continent.
It is our science that gives us our chief advantage over
lesser nations."

From that, one can deduce that spell-based sorcery is practiced - with variable success, admittedly, but practiced nonetheless.

As Count Brass says...

"When you first arrived here at Castle Brass," Count Brass
continued, "I realized that the Black Jewel was something
more than you said it was - even if you did not yourself
realize it. I am afraid that those of the Dark Empire do me
little credit, for I have studied quite as much sorcery and
science as they, and I have a grimoire in which the machine
of the Black Jewel is described."

And in describing Bowgentle's lab...

This room was left and another entered, larger
than the first. It contained a great mass of alchemical apparatus
and was lined with bookshelves full of huge old volumes
of chemistry, sorcery, and philosophy.

The point here is that sorcery of the kind found in the Hawkmoon rules is not misplaced at all. It doesn't receive a huge amount of attention in the saga, but it is referenced and a great deal of evidence can be found amongst the books. To say outright that there is no evidence of spell use is not really accurate; neither is saying that there cannot be sorcery because the Tragic Millenium is a Lawful world. Yes, science exists, but so does sorcery. In the saga, the former simply gets a bit more attention than the latter.

 

[The King]

Ah, but is it? Its been a debate for some time, and I'm not entirely convinced that it is a Lawful world. Just because science dominates does not necessarily make it a Lawful plane at all, and there's plenty of evidence of Chaos infringing (mutants, for example, and some of the sorcery, especially the Machine of the Black Jewel, is definitely in breach of what one might hold as absolutely lawful physics). And if there is no mind power, how does one explain the Wraith Folk of Soryandum or the Great Good Ones of D'nark (both of whom exhibit mind powers)?

IMO, these powers are more a result of science and machinery (radiations) that true powers inherent to the race.
The same applies to mutants. They aren't the result of chaos but of radiations which affected them over the years.

I think machines are necessarily lawful inventions because the plans, the pieces and components within must be set in a specific order and have a specific function in order to run properly. That is also the way science usually operates (i.e. with logic).

It is not impossible however that some artefact of science could draw forth chaos from beyond. This is, say, the 0,001% uncertainty factor of statistics.

As to the world of Hawkmoon, it is indeed a lawful world (Grandbretons are lawful in a sense: they belong to orders and their armies are organized) but it is pushed to the limits. Neither Chaos nor Law can (and should) win. This is the job of the runestaff to ensure balance. So I would say there is indeed chaos in there, but is is more insidious.

I recently saw again the great movie Jurassic Park some times ago and there is an excellent definition of chaos by Jeff Goldblum (to sum it up, chaos isn't predictible and can't reproduce twice the same result with the same starting factors).

 

[Loz]

As to the world of Hawkmoon, it is indeed a lawful world (Grandbretons are lawful in a sense: they belong to orders and their armies are organized) but it is pushed to the limits. Neither Chaos nor Law can (and should) win. This is the job of the runestaff to ensure balance. So I would say there is indeed chaos in there, but is is more insidious.

Yet Pan Tang of the Young Kingdoms is most certainly Chaotic, but also has an well organised army and an active Theocracy...

What differentiates the Tragic Millenium from the Young Kingdoms is not necessarily notions of Law and Chaos but an absence of a controlling manifestation of either. In the YK the various gods manifest and meddle. In the Tragic Millenium they do not; even the Runestaff is viewed with scepticism. Granbretan exhibits aspects of both Law and Chaos but truly cleaves to neither. The fractious states of Europe are disorderly and lacking direction but cannot be viewed as entirely Chaotic. The Balance teeters but offers no direction itself, until Hawkmoon effectively imposes it. Science is a legacy of a world that destroyed itself; sorcery exists but is relatively unexplored, and so the two co-exist. What does not exist are the gods who seek to drive one force over another, as they do in Corum's and Elric's worlds (and others).

This is the real reason why I don't view the TM as being a Lawful plane just because there are ornithopters and flamelances, or because Granbretan wears masks and imposes a caste structure. These can be considered lawful elements, but Granbretan also demonstrates a hefty streak of the chaotic in its behaviour and outlook. If anything, the Tragic Millenium is like a gyroscope that is beginning to lose its motion; it teeters and veers all over the place, but still manages to retain its balance. Then, along comes Meliadus, swears on the Runestaff, thereby threading the string back into the gyroscope. Ultimately it is Hawkmoon who winds and then pulls it...

 

[Mage]

I dont feel either way about this debate as anything in a setting helps it, whether you want to use it yourself or not leave it out in your own game, but that is a very deep analysis of the TM.

 

[Astromancer]

Hawkmoon is told in the books that Granbettan might achieve starflight, (ie a very high level of technology), and spread choas thoughout the universe. So, unlike the Young Kingdoms or Corum's world, technology isn't the sole province of Law in the sphere that contains Tragic Millenium Europe, Hawkmoon, Granbettan, et al.

Moorcock started writting these books in the 1960's. Psionics were more acceptable as a possible future science and several creatures are said in the books to project "Mental Rays." Which leads me to suggest that Psi Powers fit this setting, as long as they are either non-physical or low key.

Useing telekinesis to drag a small key a few inches into the hero's grasp, good. The psion looks at a boulder and flings it a couple of hundred yards by thought power, bad.

Along with works like "A Princess of Mars," "The Last Castle," "The Dying Earth," or "Nightland," before it, and "The Book of the New Sun," afterwards, the Hawkmoon novels assume that bizaar extra-dimenional energies can be harnested to proform strange wonders. Most Artifact spells should be of this type.

I'm just saying we need a book for both Players and GMs to open up Sorcery and make it easier to set up origional NPC sorcerors, and playable PC sorcerors.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

I have to say (although it had problems) I did like the way that sorcerous items could be manufactured in 'Hawkmoon Nouvelle Edition' - simple, yet flexible.

Regards

 

[The King]

...
In the YK the various gods manifest and meddle. In the Tragic Millenium they do not ...

In the YK, the balance was broken when the gods of chaos entered the battle (I think Elric isn't has no small part in this).

Technically I think TM is the antithesis of YK (in the sense of Law opposed to Chaos - yes I still think the TM is a world of law). It shows that without any balance, worlds are condemned to destruction because no side can progress without the other.

The best would be to ask M. Moorcock but I think everyone who read a book develops his own thoughts about it, whatever the author wish to convey.

 

[Loz]

In the YK, the balance was broken when the gods of chaos entered the battle (I think Elric isn't has no small part in this).

Oh, that's very true. The 'Making of a Sorcerer' comics establish how Arioch and Chaos gained that foothold with Elric's ancestors and, of course, the choices Elric makes in the main saga contribute directly to the power Chaos gains although, ultimately, it is Pan Tang that pushes the YK towards cataclysm.

 

[The King]

In the YK, the balance was broken when the gods of chaos entered the battle (I think Elric has no small part in this).

Oh, that's very true. The 'Making of a Sorcerer' comics establish how Arioch and Chaos gained that foothold with Elric's ancestors and, of course, the choices Elric makes in the main saga contribute directly to the power Chaos gains although, ultimately, it is Pan Tang that pushes the YK towards cataclysm.

There is also the part where the gods of chaos secretly gathered in the jungle in the South(western) continent where they probably implemented something like a "Yalta agreement".

 

[Loz]

'The Jade Man's Eyes'.

A classic Elric story,