[Hawkmoon] A question of Faith.

F

Facedanser

Mongoose
Ez

Religions in Hawkmoon rpg.............Discuss.

From my viewpoint:

The Red Church- Catholic type religion. Big on organisation and POWER. Much like the Popes of the past. Wear Red robes. Churches built of Red Stone (such as Sandstone or Red Marble). Pyramidal Power structure.

The Sanctified Church- Based on Ancient Pre- TM Christian saint worship. Have lost 'God' but each Sanctified is a new or ancient saint. More communal in nature, less structured and a strong 'Hermit' movement.

The Church of Gran Bretan- See Granbretan book.

(Not in MRB etc.)

The Muskovian Orthodox Church- Mush like Orthadox Christianity. Icons, gold and different calender etc.

The Germanian Fellowship- Based on Puritan/ Protestantism. In competition with The Red Church etc.

Any other ideas/ suggestions?
 
The french supplements for hawkmoon 1st ed. were full of new implications and intrigues involving churches in Tragique Europe.

For exemple:
* the "Sincère Repentir" church is a kind of torturous, neo-gothic and macabre version of the catholic church. Full of messages of punishments and repentance.
* the "Culte du Vrai Dieu" is more like the protestantism or oecumenism that you can find in western Europe (not the more extremist way that you can find in the US). My interpretation is that its philosophy favors trade and self improvement.
* the "Teutonic chivalry order", roughly affiliated to the "Sincère Repentir" is a kind of chivalry order aimed to hunt down mutants of any kind and dedicated to "ethnic human purity"...

Of course, if you read french you HAVE to find some of the magnificent works that has been done on Hawkmoon, especially the "La France" tremendous supplement!
 
While reading this post earlier I began to wonder about whether a "Church of Granbretan" would actually exist and if so in what form?
I reckon that if such a church existed that Huon would definately be its head.(in the same way that QE2 is head of the COE.) Considering his history and the fact that he is nigh on immortal, some might attribute messianic qualities and omnipotenence to him. A living,if not exactly breathing, god. He might even be venerated by his own cult.
I am not sure that there would be priests in the Granbretan religion. I imagine that they might follow a more protestant doctrine where "every man is his own priest".
In the case of the Granbretanians this would have come about because no man would willingly trust his eternal soul to the guidance of another man, priest or not. What do you think?
Organised religions also tend to be slaves to dogma. My thoughts would be that Granbretan religion would be a very personal thing,as I cannot imagine these villains submitting to the constraints(and there might only be very few) of an organised doctrine.
I am also thinking that their religion may be a debased form of ancestor worship,given the names of their deities and that despite seeking to invoke their power in battle they actually fear them. Their rituals are usually emphasise appeasement rather than glorification(except,as previously stated, in matters of war).
How each man seeks to appease these gods is a matter for him as an individual to decide and I reckon that Blood sacrifices are the norm.

The Germanian Fellowship might be a good reason as to why the Red Church Bishop in Berlin does not have the ear of its Prince. I would not be too sure about it being a Puritanical religion but would probably have it as resembling the Red Church but politically opposed to it as opposed to doctrinally.
I think that I might keep the Calvinist stylings for Amarekh.What do you think?
 
Given that Lucifer has been known to make an appearance in the EC books, I reckon that a church dedicated to him and a Tragic Millenium version of Klosterheim would not be too difficult to envision.
 
Dear All,

Of course there is a Granbretanian Church - they have a reasonably extensive pantheon with Aral Vilsin as their chief god.

It's in Moorcock.

Regards
 
Why yes it is...............Can't remember page nos :(


Anyways RE The Germanian Fellowship. Puritan is maybea bit strong. More 'work ethic' orientated and less hierachical than the Red Church.
Also I kinda misnamed it............I kinda envisioned the faith being spread in Northern Europe, Southern Muskovia, Scandia, Dahnmark etc.

Anyways cheers fo' the feedback.....
 
No problem Facedanser, happy to discuss all points of EC gaming and background with anyone.

Lord High Munchkin, I am not sure that Michael Moorcock did state that there was a "Church of Granbretan". I am however willing to be "converted" if you can give me the reference. :)

I am well aware of the existence of Aral Vilsn etc and in my original post I do refer to them(though not by name) when I speculate on the possibility of Ancestor Worship.
In the Hawkmoon rulebook, there are two statements which I think support my point of view.

The first is on Page 39,the last sentence of the final paragraph.

"As for Granbretan, the Dark Empire does not believe in any gods or higher powers, and priests are put to death there."

The second is the first line of the Sidebar titled "Gods of Granbretan" on page 47 of the same book.

"Granbretan has its own pantheon of Gods, who are not formally worshipped, but are honoured and invoked in times of battle."

My interpretation of this is that there is no state organised religion but that individuals may have their own beliefs. No need for priests.Each man placates the gods in his own way as Granbretanians are as paranoid about each other as they are xenophobic about outsiders.

I also noticed while looking through the Granbretan book that each Beast order has a temple, so a possibility of pseudo religious ritual there.
What do you all think?
 
Sorry,forgot about a couple of things in that last post.
I wonder if the hatred shown for organised religion and priests by the Dark Empire might be based on the fact that they represent an effective means of uniting people against the coming invasion?
Also, in an old Chaosium supplement,"The Shattered Isle", there is mention of the Cult of Say-Tunn who seems to be the God of the Yelite mutants. I don't know if its canon but it might work with the previous post of Lucifer and Klosterheim.
 
tarkhan bey said:
I also noticed while looking through the Granbretan book that each Beast order has a temple, so a possibility of pseudo religious ritual there.
What do you all think?
Click to expand...

Definitely!
For me this kind of "tribal fellowship" is what can be concidered the closest to a "religion" for Granbretan.
 
Hmmmmmmm Forgot RE Say-Tunn from Yel. Gawd the Shattered Isle, blast from the past!! Its in the Order of the Mutant bit aint it????

Its true what peeps say RE GB. I checked it :) (I have no life)

Another member of the GB church

Blar the False. Liar extrordinaire. He once convinced a country to fight for no reason. His glibness and way with words was famed across the world and he had the ears of the Gods of Amerakh.

(guess who??)

Heh


I was thinking about Eastern Faiths as well. Maybe a recombined Islamic faith, with no Sunni/ Shia divide for instance, mixed with a dash Sufi/ Zoroastrianism and other ancient Persian-ish faiths?????

Dunno really......
 
Dear All,

One thing that strikes me that needs to be avoided is trying to resurrect millennia dead religions.

There was a French fan-produced supplement on Egypt that used a renewed Ancient Egyptian pantheon.

That really struck me as way too far fetched an idea - it totally ignored the whole influence and complete acceptance of Islam in modern Egypt. Besides, Islam is a much more straightforward belief system that any Egyptian peasant has easy access to. Ancient Egyptian beliefs on the other hand, were considered highly esoteric even during Ancient times. Which would realistically survive a major disaster such as is postulated in 'Hawkmoon'?

Go simple and adapt widespread, modern popular (and deeply entrenched) religions.

Regards
 
I like Blar the False, Facedanser. It appeals to me to add our own additions to the GB pantheon.
I had a few thoughts of my own regarding the veneration and deification of ancients and came up with the hero Oresho Nalseen. He was an ancient Admiral of the Granbretan fleet who defeated various French fleets sent by the Demonic Emperor of France.
His statue stands in Londra to this day where it is known as Nalseen's column. Both the towns of Plymth and Smuth claim him as their own personal hero.

I was also thinking about "The Fearsome Four" and came up with a popular tale of how they planned to conquer Amarekh but were, at least, partially thwarted by the Demonic entity known only as "The King".

Tarkhan Bey has now left the building. Thang you very much! Uh huh huh etc. 8)
 
High Lord Munchkin
I see ya point, totally agree. Althogh Parsees/ Zoroastrians are a modern religion from parts of Iran, Bangledesh, Zanzibar etc. Considering its essentially the Ancient Persian faith (its root). But considering its low number of adjherents (comparitively) its survival through the tragic Mil. would be less likely. *Ramble Ramble*

Tarkhan
Like it...........Oh there are so many possibilities. I like the Thatcher reference in the GB religion section. It made me chuckle.........

Another!!

Dana Princess of Hearts. Sacrificed by Meedea in far off Parye, she was a saint of the people, known for her generosity, honesty and humbleness. She blesses scorned women and those that hide secrets.

Hee Hee
 
Facedanser,I had forgotten about that veiled reference to Maggie Thatcher. On looking it up I realised that there is in fact a reference to cathedrals where the GB pantheon are revered/placated.
This is of course what you guys were referring to earlier. :oops:
I am still not sure about this though, as it depends on whether you accept that the newer book info takes precedence over that in the core book.
I still cannot remember Moorcock ever referring to a Church of Granbretan and so I reckon that either interpretation is equally useable and valid.

A few thoughts on the Gods names. It is fairly obvious who some of them are but any thoughts on who Bjirn Adass the singing god,Jh'im Slas the weeping god and Jeejea Blad the Groaning God might be. Also, what about Skvese and Blansacredid?

How about
Jh'im S'vill, "The God of Dreams made reality"
or
Kil'f R'chad,"the God of Eternal Youth".
 
I don't think Granbretan would have a state religion, or even consider their gods to be anything other than symbolic ideals. The idea of a higher authority is anathema to them. Then again, they're nuts.
 
Hi all,

This is a wild guess as have not read the books in decades but i always thought that Bjirn Adass was Brian Aldiss (sci fi writer) and that Jeejea Blad was either Georgie Best (footballer) or Georgia Brown(e) a singer.

But who knows except Mr Moorcock and i am not sure he really wants us to know!
 
Jaejee Blad is JG Ballard, who contributed to New Worlds (along with Brin Adiss and John Sladek) at the time.

I do like the George Best intepretation tho'!
 
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