Greater than 20th Level ie Epic

Baraendur said:
lastbesthope said:
1) Why must we differentiate between levels below and above 20, it seems like an avoidable evil to me, but let's see what the do in 2E.

To keep power levels realistic, and to keep from having to design a completely new game to support high level play. If you continue to use the same advancement, by level 35, your officer will have an attack bonus that would be +35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5. That's just so many attacks that it strains believability. Saves also go off the charts very quickly, as do skills, etc. At 20th level, you're already at a point where the old challenges just aren't that scary anymore. Why compound the problem by maintaining the same rate of advancement?

Realistic? We're playing an SF game :lol:

Buit remember, B5 is not primarily a combat game, and it ttakes Sheridan 8 years to become 20th level from being 12th level at the start of Season 2. And by then he is no longer a combat character, he is a political force more than anything.

As for compunding the problem, what problem? You need to come up woith tougher objectives every time they level up anyway, and if your GM still has them intrigued at level 20 then you should have no trouble keeping them interested beyond that. but by the time your characters get to those sort of levels you've got to wonder what more does your character really have to do, they're probably running at least one planet or major corporation by then and have not so much time for adventuring through the galaxy.

But anyway, I am perhaps sounding too arrogant now, and if so I apologise. If you want to use the Epic Level handbook to progress your characters past 20th, you can. That's the first rule of RPGs, it's your game, do with it what you will. Personally, I am nowhere near this becoming a problem, by the time AotR gets to that stage I will either come up with something spectacularly devious, or just kill them all for being dumb enough to go adventuring when they are persons of such significance :twisted:

I mean, look what happened to Dukhat when he went off around the galaxy . . . .

LBH
 
Actually I saw something, I forget exactly where it was that said that characters only get 5 attacks per round. I think it was in the DMG but I think they were trying to keep characters from having the attacks score that Baraendur mentioned. Don't ask me where it is since I don't know, I just blundered across it while making a higher level character for another game.
 
LoneStranger said:
Actually I saw something, I forget exactly where it was that said that characters only get 5 attacks per round. I think it was in the DMG but I think they were trying to keep characters from having the attacks score that Baraendur mentioned. Don't ask me where it is since I don't know, I just blundered across it while making a higher level character for another game.

You are correct. In the official epic rules, every class gets a +1 epic attack bonus at every level. What's the difference between an epic attack bonus and a regular attack bonus? You get no additional attacks. The official rationale behind this is that the more attacks you get, the less worthwhile the later ones become. If you have a +35 attack bonus, then chances are that your +5 attack will have no chance of hitting your opponent.

lastbesthope said:
Realistic? We're playing an SF game

Yes, this is a SF game, but it is one that puts a lot more emphasis on realism than most other D20 games. Even the most advanced characters are still mortal.

Buit remember, B5 is not primarily a combat game, and it ttakes Sheridan 8 years to become 20th level from being 12th level at the start of Season 2. And by then he is no longer a combat character, he is a political force more than anything.

That is exactly why you wouldn't want to use the epic level rules from the standard D20 game. Epic level characters are absolute powerhouses. Those rules take what is already a high powered game, D&D, and make it into a power gamer's wildest dream. Epic feats are far all far more powerful than their non-epic counterparts. The +1 bonus to attack per level allows most classes to advance much faster than they did before becoming epic. For all intents and purposes, they become superheroes. My system allows Babylon 5 characters to continue increasing their skills, which are really more important in this game anyway, rather than turning them into combat juggernauts.

As for compunding the problem, what problem? You need to come up woith tougher objectives every time they level up anyway, and if your GM still has them intrigued at level 20 then you should have no trouble keeping them interested beyond that. but by the time your characters get to those sort of levels you've got to wonder what more does your character really have to do, they're probably running at least one planet or major corporation by then and have not so much time for adventuring through the galaxy.

This really depends upon the campaign. I could easily see 20th level characters stationed aboard a starship. If tthe characters become too politically powerful, throw something like the Drakh plague their way and cut them off from their base of power. Or change the politics and put them on their own, much like Sheridan was when B5 seceeded from Earth. There are always situations that allow high level characters to become directly involved with the world. They don't all have to go their separate ways and un some prestigious organization like they did at the end of the show.

If you want to use the Epic Level handbook to progress your characters past 20th, you can. That's the first rule of RPGs, it's your game, do with it what you will. Personally, I am nowhere near this becoming a problem, by the time AotR gets to that stage I will either come up with something spectacularly devious, or just kill them all for being dumb enough to go adventuring when they are persons of such significance Twisted Evil

Oh I agree, the games master should absolutely be the master of their domain. That means tweaking the rules, or blatantly disregarding some in favor of systems that work best in their game. It wouldn't take much doing to make B5 a combat oriented game, in fact I have an article slated for an upcoming issue of S&P that does exactly that. :)
 
I think I would preferer that the d20 power increasing linearly with level was reduced or removed. It would be better if you halfed the increases at 6th and again at 12th and again at 18th. IE at 6th your BAB increases every other level instead of every level for the fast increases. etc. I think I can live with the Skill Points but the BAB and Save advance to quickly for me.

Regards
Dave
 
Yeah there are very few epic feats that would make sense for Babylon 5. Of course feats like epic skill focus would be perfect, it would make sense that the guy who spends his life (or the campaign) making weapons or fixing the ship(s) the group uses would keep getting better at it as time goes on.
 
sarum said:
I think I would preferer that the d20 power increasing linearly with level was reduced or removed. It would be better if you halfed the increases at 6th and again at 12th and again at 18th. IE at 6th your BAB increases every other level instead of every level for the fast increases. etc. I think I can live with the Skill Points but the BAB and Save advance to quickly for me.

Regards
Dave

So you're saying that if you graph out your power progression, it would look more like a curve than a diagonal line?:D I tend to agree with you there, but that just isn't how D20 is designed. Now an OGL product could remedy this.
 
lastbesthope said:
Morden said:
I tend to agree with you there, but that just isn't how D20 is designed. Now an OGL product could remedy this.

B5 2E is going to be OGL, mayhap they will include rules for that there. See this thread:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11450&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

LBH

I know it will be OGL, but I don't see how it can change the power progression curve (or line) without making a lot of the older material obsolete, so I'm guessing we won't see that for the B5 game, at least not for this edition.
 
Morden said:
I know it will be OGL, but I don't see how it can change the power progression curve (or line) without making a lot of the older material obsolete, so I'm guessing we won't see that for the B5 game, at least not for this edition.

Well they could do it quite simply, by making their own Epic Level rules, if they chose. Never say something can't be done, faith manages :lol:

LBH
 
umm.. ok.. confused, this seems to have wandered.. we seem to have 2 questions here now:
what is epic?
Can we be PC Epic characters..

so if as a gm you say things go epic at 40th level.. and you make enemies accordingly.. question two becomes mute
if its 20th.. then Tecnomages, Telepaths, rangers.. they all become overly restricted.. as i know if i were an ISA ranger i would aim to be level 21 hitting my first prestige class.. not 10th or 15th!
 
Serenn said:
umm.. ok.. confused, this seems to have wandered.. we seem to have 2 questions here now:
what is epic?
Can we be PC Epic characters..

Well there is no definition for Epic in the B5 RPG, and you cant answer the second question without an answer to the first.

LBH
 
I think Epic for a starter would be a bad term for what is sought, works for a fantasy setting but epic in B5 would be more as per the humans looking back on the Fall before leaving for the Rim episode... i.e an Evolved species on par with the vorlons, shadows and other first one and ancient species.

For something 20th level + for Bab 5 something like Advanced, Heroic, Legendary would be a more apt term.. representing the most unique of movers and shakers among a species.

something of that kind for B5 would more likely be about influence and skill than attack bonus and saves.

Perhaps Legendary Characters for B5 could learn to use skills and feats in new and potent ways as opposed to being tanked up combatively. And learn new and useful abilities that stem from thier class and race for example.
 
Yeah Legendary would probably work better, everyone says Epic because of D&D.

It would be interesting to see the polarizing effect Legendary has on people. Either everyone would stay away from the character in combat because they've heard so much about him/her or they all try to take the person down to help their reputations.

Actually that does get me to thinking, does B5 have (or will it have) reputation scores? I know it's been done in other games but it does seem fitting especially in this case. I have played the game a couple of times myself but I'm blanking completely right now.
 
LoneStranger said:
Yeah Legendary would probably work better, everyone says Epic because of D&D.

It would be interesting to see the polarizing effect Legendary has on people. Either everyone would stay away from the character in combat because they've heard so much about him/her or they all try to take the person down to help their reputations.

Actually that does get me to thinking, does B5 have (or will it have) reputation scores? I know it's been done in other games but it does seem fitting especially in this case. I have played the game a couple of times myself but I'm blanking completely right now.

Influence in 2e is a form of reputation but covers more than just that.
 
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