God Learners

[gran_orco]

I do not understand the difference between sorcerers.
Are Runequest sorcery rules "generic"? I mean, magic of glorantha explains how is the sorcery made by god learners: Touch trait is removed and some casting times are lower. So, if a player wants to do a sorcerer in Glorantha, should he join a malkion church and do all his magic with ranged trait? (changing spellbook).
Should a sorcerer choose a cult of cults 2 (is he commited to do it?) being in glorantha, or simply does he learn any spell like an advanced skill without limitations?
I hope that you could understand my question

 

[soltakss]

Well, in Glorantha most "sorcerers" do belong to Western-style cults.

This is because way-back-when, a demigod called Malkion received prophecies about how to live, how to survive and how to fix the world. He taught the people of the Kingdom of Logic and some listened to him. The followers of Malkion are the Malkioni and they have sorcery as their magic as that is the magic that Malkion taught.

However, there are other types of sorcery around as well. The Dwarves (Mostali) follow Mostal who teaches sorcery. Arkat stole sorcery for the trolls, so the Arkat cult teaches Sorcery. The Valedi teach sorcery and are not Malkioni, being their enemy. There may even have been survivors from the Kingdom of Logic who have kept their sorcerous heritage without belonging to a cult.

However, Glorantha being what it is, most non-Malkioni sorcerers follow some cult (Mostal, Vadel, Arkat).

That doesn't mean that sorcerers have to belong to a particular cult. It is possible to learn sorcery from books or by being taught by another sorcerer. Pretty much any sorcerer can learn any sorcery magic, but some magic is frowned on or prohibited, other magic is secret and known only to particular cults.

Any Malkioni would regard an unaligned sorcerer as a dangerous renegade, not a heretic because he does not worship a forbidden cult or follow forbidden doctrine. But, such a sorcerer would be mistrusted by Malkioni in general and by Jrusteli/God Learners in particular.

 

[gran_orco]

Thank you for your answer. It helped me. But I have one doubt not answered. Are rules of god learners in "magic of glorantha" applied to all sorcerers of cults 2? (but not mostal, or any other cult like this). Should I use normal rules playing in glorantha, or should I remove touch trait, for example?

 

[soltakss]

Rules for God Learner magic should be applied to God Learner cults.

Having said that, there is no particular reason why other sorcery users in Glorantha are worse sorcerers than the Jrusteli/God Learners/Middle Sea Empire.

So, I'd use whatever rules seem best for the game.

The God Learners' strengths were not necessarily in their superior sorcery, rather in their methodological aproach, classification of magic, tendency to throw hundreds of sorcerers at a problem and ability to use other powers as well as sorcery. That mixed approach gave them an edge over others.

 

[Deleriad]

Only those sorcerous schools which are God Learner schools ought to use the specific rules for God Learners.

However, I really don't see the point of the fiddly changes made to the sorcery rules for God Learners; they speak of someone writing to make a word count than anything particularly playable.

As said elsewhere, the God Learners were simply more systematic and ruthless than other orders and more prepared to do unthinkable things. It wasn't so much their skill as their attitude that marked them out. Personally I would ignore the silly fiddly changes made in Magic of Glorantha.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Well, just consider the changes as "Improved versions" of Sorcery spells. These improved versions have been developed by the Jrusteli archmages by confronting their spells with theist or animist magic and heroquesting a lot. This of course means that if you get hold of a Jrusteli grimoire you can learn the improved version of the spell, too. But Jrusteli grimoires are well guarded items.

 

[gran_orco]

Mmmm. Well, I will have to show you an example:
Bardan's Book War Wizard School
School teaches only 10 sorcery spells
OK, should I suppose that this school is able to learn that of "magic of glorantha"?

School of Hwarosian mysteries
This is the only school that indicates this: Sorcery Grimoire Spells: All common Sorcery spells plus the Abiding Book.
Mean this that this school could use the sorcery of the "Spellbook" and "companion"?
If not, which churches/schools can learn them? All sorcery orders have a list of a few spells available!

 

[soltakss]

OK, looking through the main books for Sorcery Schools/Cults, we have a number of schools with vastly different spells.

Some have access to a lot of spells, others to a few spells. Does this seem fair? Well, yes, it does. Not all cults are the same, some are more powerful than others.

Also, don't forget that most of the Orders and Schools also belong to the True Malkioni Church, so have access to their spells as well. Think of them as specialising in certain magics but still belonging to the main church.

Unless otherwise stated, they can learn spells from other places as well.

I don't like the general idea that all sorcerers have access to all the spells in all the books, which is why the RQ Spellbook is definitely iffy in my opinion. I like the idea of certain Schools or Orders having specialist spells and finding it difficult to learn all common spells.

Having said that, many of the common spells will be generally available, but not from religious sources, which is what the Malkioni Churches, Schools and Orders are. You could put forward the argument that Schools are not particularly religious but in the Middle Sea Empire most of them are state-sponsored in one way or another.

I hope that helps and I haven't confused matters even more.

Jrustela:

The Saintly Bookbearers:
3 Rune Spells, 4 sorcery spells, All spells from the Abiding Book

The Order of Saint Serezos:
2 sorcery spells, All spells from the Abiding Book

The Brothers of Charitable Thought:
2 Rune Spells, 7 sorcery spells, All spells from the Abiding Book, all common sorcery spells

The New Iron Staff:
3 Rune Spells, 14 sorcery spells, All spells from the Abiding Book, All Common spells

Monks of Blood:
3 Rune Spells, 12 Sorcery Spells

Cults of Glorantha 2:

Arkat Kingtroll:
4 Rune Spells, 8 Sorcery Spells, 2 Charms

Atroxic Church:
4 Rune Spells, 10 sorcery spells, probably most of the spells in the Abiding Book through the Book of Betrayal and Murder

Bardan's Book:
3 Rune Spells, 13 sorcery spells

Cogs of Zistor:
4 Rune Spells, 5 Sorcery Spells

Cricible of Iron:
5 Rune Spells, 11 Sorcery Spells

Knights of Saint Volanc:
4 Rune Spells, 11 Sorcery Spells

Malkioni True Church:
All spells from the Abiding Book

Mostal (Rock Dwarves):
6 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Lead Dwarves):
5 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Quicksilver Dwarves):
4 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Copper Dwarves):
4 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Tin Dwarves):
5 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Brass Dwarves):
5 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Silver Dwarves):
All common sorcery spells, all common enchantments

Mostal (Gold Dwarves):
7 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Iron Dwarves):
10 Sorcery Spells

Mostal (Diamond Dwarves):
0 Sorcery Spells

Order of Gark:
4 Rune Spells, 13 Sorcery Spells

Order of Malkinus the Learned:
3 Rune Spells, 20 Sorcery Spells

Saint Waertag:
3 Rune Spells, 11 Sorcery Spells

School of Hwarosian Mysteries:
4 Rune Spells, 9 Sorcery Spells, All Common Sorcery Spells, All Spells from the Abiding Book

Xemelite Nuns:
4 Rune Spells, 10 Sorcery Spells, Access to all Healing Rune/Sorcery Magic from all other Malkioni Schools except Atroxic and Malkinius

 

[soltakss]

Having looked through Mahic of Glorantha again, I would use the specified rules for Jrusteli/Middle Sea Empire/God Learner Sorcerers.

So, the Carmanians wouldn't get them, not would the Mostali, Atroxi or Arkati. If they ever wrote up the Brithini they wouldn't get them either, nor would the Vadeli.

But, all God Learner Churches, Schools and Orders would. That seems to include Gark as well, which is interesting in itself.

Does this disadvantage non-God Learner Sorcerers? Absolutely. Should they all become God Learners? Absolutely not. It's like saying that the Catholic Church is more widespread and richer than the Presbyterian Church, so all Presbyterians should become Catholics. It's a no-no on so many counts.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Whilst theist cults by and large have either 'common' spells or unique spells that reflect the runic associations or a particular myth, I think that sorcery 'cults' wouldn't be limited in this way.

Sorcery is individual and varied. The spells and techniques held by a sorcery school represent secrets held within the cult that they can and will teach to members, but they don't represent an arbitrary limit upon what spells a particular sorcery-user can learn.

I see no reason why any particular sorcery spell couldn't be learned unless it was a cult/order specific secret that the character couldn't access. The stuff in the companion/spellbook all seems fair game to me. I see no reason why a particular wizard couldn't use multiple rule systems if necessary, since sorcery is a skill. "I do one thing this way, and I achieve another that way."

I would see the multiple rules for sorcery as a reflection on the discipline itself, a personal approach to magical power which varies from individual to individual. If sorcery was taught by the Godlearners, it would use Godlearner rules. But that is just one method for using sorcery. Another is through the Malkioni cults, and there is, as has also been mentioned 'unaligned sorcery'.

Sorcery as a magic system is all about the ends, not the means. That's what makes the Gloranthan Malkioni cults interesting as they have imposed a particular morality on an essentially amoral form of magic. It is the same amoral pursuit of power that makes the Godlearners so gross.

Just my take on it.

 

[soltakss]

Whilst theist cults by and large have either 'common' spells or unique spells that reflect the runic associations or a particular myth, I think that sorcery 'cults' wouldn't be limited in this way.

Some wouldn't, some would. Take the Xemelite Nuns, for example, they follow Saint Xemela who martyred herself by absorbing a disease. Her Order is definitely based around her personal abilities and that is what she teaches.

I would say that Orders are the closest to the Abilities/Powers of the orders' founders and would have spells linked directly to the Founder's abilities.

Sorcery is individual and varied. The spells and techniques held by a sorcery school represent secrets held within the cult that they can and will teach to members, but they don't represent an arbitrary limit upon what spells a particular sorcery-user can learn.

Absolutely not. Nobody is saying that members of a School can only learn that magic. Sure, sorcers can learn magic from all over the place, if they can find someone to teach them or can get access to Grimoires.

I see no reason why any particular sorcery spell couldn't be learned unless it was a cult/order specific secret that the character couldn't access. The stuff in the companion/spellbook all seems fair game to me. I see no reason why a particular wizard couldn't use multiple rule systems if necessary, since sorcery is a skill. "I do one thing this way, and I achieve another that way."

Maybe. A sorcerer could certainly walk up to a Sorcery School and say "I'm a sorcerer and I want to learn Blade of Searing Agony, could you teach me it? I'm in a bit of a hurry, so chop-chop!" Doing so would probably lead to an encounter with the Blade of Searing Agony in a very personal way.

Sorcery Schools tend to be very protective over their magics. After all, if they taught everyone their magic then there would be no readon for the School to exist. So, they tend to teach School Members and nobody else. They could teach anyone, but what's the sense in that?

 

[Cleombrotus]

There is the reality that whilst no rule should limit what a sorcerer can learn or how they practice their craft, there are many in-game challenges awaiting anyone who would attempt to acquire such power.

Sorcery Schools tend to be very protective over their magics. After all, if they taught everyone their magic then there would be no readon for the School to exist. So, they tend to teach School Members and nobody else. They could teach anyone, but what's the sense in that?

Absolutely. No question.

 

[Deleriad]

I see no reason why any particular sorcery spell couldn't be learned unless it was a cult/order specific secret that the character couldn't access. The stuff in the companion/spellbook all seems fair game to me. I see no reason why a particular wizard couldn't use multiple rule systems if necessary, since sorcery is a skill. "I do one thing this way, and I achieve another that way."

Don't forget that (unless I am misunderstanding) that all spells from a school's grimoire are cast using the same skill. This is a huge practical incentive to stick to the spells from the grimoire because a sorceror needs only learn one skill to cast a number of different spells.

A sorceror can head off and learn other spells but will need to learn new skills. However the other members of the order, both corporate and discorporate may well look badly on the sorceror casting spells that seem against the ethos of the order. Thus a sorceror has profound practical, moral and theological reasons to stick to the magics taught by their order and only to teach them to other members of the order.

Clearly there are other sources of knowledge about sorcery but these are likely to be fare rarer and more dangerous than going to church on Sundays and learning the right prayers.

 

[gran_orco]

Don't forget that (unless I am misunderstanding) that all spells from a school's grimoire are cast using the same skill. This is a huge practical incentive to stick to the spells from the grimoire because a sorceror needs only learn one skill to cast a number of different spells.

Could a sorcery school -those idependent of churches- have a grimoire, or is it exclusive from churches and schools of wizardly?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Could a sorcery school -those idependent of churches- have a grimoire, or is it exclusive from churches and schools of wizardly?

As I understand these things (based mostly on Heroquest, but should be applicable for some values of Glorantha...(YGMV))

A (brand) new grimoire is a difficult thing to produce. It is the product of much heroquesting on the sorcery/essence planes to forge links between various "spell nodes" and the "grimoire node". The (physical) grimoire is linked to the "grimoire node" in a similar way to the way talismans are linked to "spell nodes", which is why you can use the same skill to cast all the spells in the grimoire.

This heroquesting is easier if you are getting the support of your community - and most church/wizardly orders have grimoires written by their founders who were holy men and leaders who would have that support

The dominance of the established church(es) in most of the sorcery-using lands meand that non-church/sorcery schools tend to be much smaller and have less (temporal) power, and therefore less community support.

So although a sorcerer, or a sorcerous order/sorcery school can have a grimoire, not every one does, and they may not be as extensive as a wizardly one - though they may be more eclectic!

Note also that the "owners" of a grimoire can control or limit access to the "grimoire node", so excommunciates or apostates can be "cut off" from the power of the grimoire, even if they possess a physical copy of the work. Access to a copy of another's grimoire can help a sorceror work out how to cast a spell themself, but doesn't automatically give them the ability to do so.

 

[Voriof]

Don't forget that (unless I am misunderstanding) that all spells from a school's grimoire are cast using the same skill. This is a huge practical incentive to stick to the spells from the grimoire because a sorceror needs only learn one skill to cast a number of different spells.

That was the intent when I wrote it up that way. Grimoires are powerful and highly useful - and very much tied into the philosophy and ability of the School or Order Founder as much as any raw power of that group. Tinkering with a grimoire that's already established is tricky to say the least!

Almost every sorcery school, wizardly order, or Church has a grimoire (aka scripture, formulary, grimoire, etc in HeroQuest) of some sort. I am hard pressed to think of one that does not. Minor saints such as city founders might be about the only ones I can think of as they may only have a single spell to offer their congregations and worshippers.

A sorceror can head off and learn other spells but will need to learn new skills. However the other members of the order, both corporate and discorporate may well look badly on the sorceror casting spells that seem against the ethos of the order. Thus a sorceror has profound practical, moral and theological reasons to stick to the magics taught by their order and only to teach them to other members of the order.

Of course if the material their colleague has acquired is theologically/thematically appropriate, he may gain great prestige and reward by sharing this new knowledge with his alma mater.

Clearly there are other sources of knowledge about sorcery but these are likely to be fare rarer and more dangerous than going to church on Sundays and learning the right prayers.

Yes, indeedy! But some are also rewarding politically - stealing magic back from the krijalki Arkat heretics is a good place to start. And hey, the Master of the Drank Hell of Upside Down Sinners supposedly knows great secrets of sorcery. Of course, the Churchmen decry this entity as a Chaos being but that's just prejudice of the clergy. Surely nothing could go wrong by summoning him and learning what he has to offer... Right?

Jeff

 

[gran_orco]

Having looked through Mahic of Glorantha again, I would use the specified rules for Jrusteli/Middle Sea Empire/God Learner Sorcerers.

So, the Carmanians wouldn't get them, not would the Mostali, Atroxi or Arkati. If they ever wrote up the Brithini they wouldn't get them either, nor would the Vadeli.

But, all God Learner Churches, Schools and Orders would. That seems to include Gark as well, which is interesting in itself.

Does this include crucible of Iron? I do not know nothing about Glorantha: I do not see nothing about Vadeli or Brithini. Which are these cults, where are them in the books?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I do not know nothing about Glorantha: I do not see nothing about Vadeli or Brithini. Which are these cults, where are them in the books?

They are conspicuous by their absence in the MRQ books, and not greatly detailed in any earlier RQ or HQ books either.

The Brithini are immortal sorcerors, led by Zzabur, who live on the island of Brithos. They are extremely conservative as they only maintain their immortality by never doing anything new. Their rigid caste-based system forms the basis of western civilization, but unlike the nations of the west, they rejected the teachings of Malkion (IIRC they were responsible for his martyrdom). The Brithini are generally considered to be Atheist and Amoral

The Vadeli are an (Immortal? not sure) people who were foes of the Brithini before time began. They had three castes, Blue Vadeli, who are powerful sorcerors, Red Vadeli who were powerful warriors and Brown Vadeli, who did everything else - Zzabur wiped most of them out in the Great Darkness (before time began) so no one in the second age has ever seen Blue or Red Vadeli (Red vadeli start to re-appear as pirates in the third age when Dormal rediscovers the Red Vadeli Islands). Brown Vadeli were apparently around in the first age as they are supposed to have helped Sehsnela fight the Waertagi. In the third age Brown Vadeli are most commonly found as merchants in costal citys. Vadeli are generally considered to be Immoral and disgusting...