Glorantha Errata

Trifletraxor

Mongoose
Could we make a Glorantha Errata thread and compile all the slip-ups from the Glorantha line books?

I'm not talking about rules or anything like that, just mistakes in geography, religion and history? Would be good to have them pointed out, so we can correct them.

So far, I've heard of two:

1) BALAZAR: The region named after its founding hero who've yet to be born.

2) CALADRA & AURELION: The sex-change twins.

SGL.
 
Trifletraxor said:
2) CALADRA & AURELION: The sex-change twins.

SGL.

To be honest, these have changed sex several times, depending on which fan-based publication you read.

I based my writeup on the original Different Worlds article waaaaay back when (which is reprinted in Cults Compendium). I stand by my design decisions and spelling. :) Who knows? They are an artificial cult, one of the crowning achievements of the God Learner's craft, and have a troubled history ahead of them. No doubt they have more changes in store).

Just sayin'

Voriof
 
The area known in later years as Balazar would be Votankiland in 908.

I have seen the area referred to as Balazar regarding events in earlier ages in other sources, but of course those histories are all written in a third age context, where they would likely call the land by it's current name.

Also, all the RQ3 material ignores Balazar because they re-released Griffin Mountain as the non-Gloranthan Griffin Island (the bastards). In the RQ3 Genertela book Balazar is just 'a blank land'.

I'm not saying that this shouldn't be fixed - it should. But in this case I can see where the confusion came from. Obviously the land would not be named Balazar until after Balazar unites the Votanki and is crowned king (in 1089).
 
Voriof said:
Trifletraxor said:
2) CALADRA & AURELION: The sex-change twins.

SGL.

To be honest, these have changed sex several times, depending on which fan-based publication you read.

Some people deliberately confused things, as a reaction to the Monomyth. So, they changed names, changed sexes and muddled things up.

A grave mistake, in my opinion.

Voriof said:
I based my writeup on the original Different Worlds article waaaaay back when (which is reprinted in Cults Compendium). I stand by my design decisions and spelling. :)

Aah, that would be the writeup that says that Caladra and Aurelion are sister and brother, with Aurelion's Breakwater being cliffs, The Vent being a volcano and Meetinghall Mountain being undefined. I've just noticed that is does say that volcanic fires burn in each of the three main sites, so the Breakwater Volcano is not inaccurate. Caladra the man and Aurelion the woman is, however. But, the sexes of deities is not that important.

Voriof said:
Who knows? They are an artificial cult, one of the crowning achievements of the God Learner's craft, and have a troubled history ahead of them. No doubt they have more changes in store).

Just sayin'

Voriof


Hmm, more changes in store. I dread to think what that means.
 
soltakss said:
Some people deliberately confused things, as a reaction to the Monomyth. So, they changed names, changed sexes and muddled things up.

Or put some differentiation back in which was obliterated by the God Learner attempts to impose of the Monomyth wherever they operated.

I have always had a problem with the imposition of identical cults practices and structures upon wide spread and disparate groups. Its like expecting each vodoun cult to have identical practices.

If you look at, say, the various avatars of the Hindu deities, you might discover that each one, while the same god or goddess, originates in a different part of the country (often quite close to the next) but all are somewhat different... but all the same god. Each worshipper, however, practices his local faith, not all of them.

I strongly suspect that the Volcano Twins is a cult that has been successfully exported/imposed/blended/Heroquested onto many pre-existing volcano cults around the Homeward Ocean.

soltakss said:
Aah, that would be the writeup that says that Caladra and Aurelion are sister and brother, with Aurelion's Breakwater being cliffs, The Vent being a volcano and Meetinghall Mountain being undefined. I've just noticed that is does say that volcanic fires burn in each of the three main sites, so the Breakwater Volcano is not inaccurate. Caladra the man and Aurelion the woman is, however. But, the sexes of deities is not that important.

Yes. The original source material.

Please see the Cults of Glorantha pre-release. Thank you. Looking at it, I see the gender and sites as I had described.

soltakss said:
Voriof said:
Who knows? They are an artificial cult, one of the crowning achievements of the God Learner's craft, and have a troubled history ahead of them. No doubt they have more changes in store).

Just sayin'

Voriof


Hmm, more changes in store. I dread to think what that means.

Much has happened between the 2nd age and the 3rd Age. In the First Age the cult did not exist except as several widly scattered unrelated volcano cults. The 2nd age cult is purely a God Learner construct.

During the Closing, Breakwater is unkown and part of the wreckage of Justrela and Meetinghall Mountain's fires are quenched by the Sinking of Slontos - at least until recently. As far as I know, only at the Vent does the cult survive in the 3rd Age in any sort of strength.

Voriof
 
So, we only have Balazar, which is understandable, and Caladra & Aurelion which might not be a mistake after all?

Not much to complain about then.



Except the noses of course... :P

SGL.
 
Trifletraxor said:
So, we only have Balazar, which is understandable, and Caladra & Aurelion which might not be a mistake after all?

Not much to complain about then.



Except the noses of course... :P

SGL.

We'll always have noses. And I admit with the troll muzzles, some of the earliest artwork was Paul Jaquay's rather idiosyncratic work. I found them unsatisyfing and too "monstrous" somehow. I like the goofy little drawings done by William Church - which apparently were used by Lisa Free for the underlying model.

However, I now have a copy of G:tSA and will no doubt be in a fuming rage in a few hours. Or not. :)

Voriof
 
Here's the basic score, from a metagame perspective.

At the Dawn, the Caladralanders were a Fire- and Heat-oriented society who worshipped the Big Daddy, Veskarthan ("Great Father"), who came from the Sky to the Earth. In many ways cognate with Lodril, in Caladran society Veskarthan is more than some peasants' fire god, but the supreme creative, progenitve, primal, masculine force of the universe.

After Veskarthan first did the naughty with the Deep Earth, the not-so-Deep Earth, and so on, he thrust upwards to rule both Sky and Earth as Caladra - which simply translates as "prime/first crater-mountain", also known as Veskarthan's Vent (as its through this which he erupts onto the world). It is from this volcano that the land and people took their name.

Some might call this a child, but Caladralanders didn't - it was simply the supreme manifestation or volcanic aspect of their god, the mountainous pore or conduit of power through which his energies were channeled; his throne, a focus of worship. The Caladralanders did not overly differentiate between mountain and deeper source, nor did they need to; they were an insular people who lived on the slopes of a god that was wholly immanent, and they didn't have to explain everyone else's myths.

Not all Caladran tribes held exactly the same view, of course. Even in the First Age there were tribal myths that focused on the feminine placation of Veskarthan and his Vent; one tribe in particular believed that the agency of feminine demigod heroines suffused the Vent with their protective 'spirit' - the daughter aspect that would later grow. In such mythology, Caladra grew to take on a feminine nature, as a placatory interface or 'stopper' on Veskarthan's plumbing.

The God Learners did not make the female take on Caladra completely up; it would have been very difficult for them to do so, given the masculine foundations that already existed. They had problems with many Caladralanders (when it becomes more commonly available, The Durengard Scrolls will shed more light on this) but in some tribes' myths saw greater potential.

Thus, under the God Learners' leadership, this Second Age cult of Caladra began to take shape. The more violent and primal aspects of the mountain, and Veskarthan himself, were foisted upon deep, distant Lodril.

[N.B. This wasn't the first time this had happened -- correspondences with entities such as Lodril were made by such as Argan Argar himself, and the Bright Empire -- again, the God Learners weren't working from scratch.]

Caladra -- "prime crater-mountain" -- came to be appreciated with regard to the more beneficent and protective aspects, which could keep a lid on "her father's" raging. Local mountain and deeper source ultimately became two different entities, not least because of the God Learner's wider knowledge of myth, and their appreciation of volcanism across the lozenge.

[N.B. the old term for Caladra was Caladril, and Caladraland was Caladrila(r); Caladra was simply the dialectal form used by the tribe whose myths the God Learners worked upon, and has since stuck.]

Of course, the God Learners went one further, and twinned this now feminised Caladra with a minor Jrusteli Earth cult - Aurelion. This Volcano Twins Cult grew, and in the old writings was held to have survived the cataclysms that struck the Middle Sea Empire, one of the few examples of a successful God Learner experiment.

Subsequent writings, not least Greg's own thoughts, mean that this is no longer the case, or at least in its entirety. After the Closing, the majority of Caladralanders went back to the old ways of appreciating volcano and source as aspects of the same masculine entity (indeed, many had retained such patterns of worship throughout the Second Age).

The Twins Cult did not die -- and indeed many speculate that it was revived by Belintar -- and the protective, feminine aspect of Caladra still remained at a tribal, totemic level in some cases. It's just not the dominant mode of worship in the Third Age, as older write-ups stated.

For the myths of most Caladralanders as of 1621, the "prime crater-mountain" has an overwhelmingly masculine correspondence; for a lesser number, this masculine correspondence is soothed, controlled and/or propitiated by a feminine energy.
 
Voriof said:
Please see the Cults of Glorantha pre-release. Thank you. Looking at it, I see the gender and sites as I had described.


Ah, so it is only wrong in Glorantha Second Age and is fixed in Cults of Glorantha. That is only a little annoying, whay couldn't it have been right in Glorantha Second Age? Still, at least it has been/will be fixed.

Voriof said:
Much has happened between the 2nd age and the 3rd Age. In the First Age the cult did not exist except as several widly scattered unrelated volcano cults. The 2nd age cult is purely a God Learner construct.

During the Closing, Breakwater is unkown and part of the wreckage of Justrela and Meetinghall Mountain's fires are quenched by the Sinking of Slontos - at least until recently. As far as I know, only at the Vent does the cult survive in the 3rd Age in any sort of strength.

Oh, old changes, not new ones. I see.
 
Stewart Stansfield said:
Here's the basic score, from a metagame perspective.

The bit about Caladraland that I liked was that they used to throw people into the volcano as sacrifices, normally annually, then the Pharoah came along and said "Go on, then, throw me in" and they did, then he came back and next year said "Go on then, throw me in", so they did ....

So, basically, the Pharoah became an annual sacrifice for the Caladra cult, sacrificed and coming back again and again.
 
soltakss said:
Oh, old changes, not new ones. I see.

Now, now. That information about the cult was already published in various places before the MRQ was published. RQ Companion being one location as well as the "Since Time" section of the original cult writeup, which is what I based my research on for MRQ's "Cults" and HQ's "Trader Princes." However, I took the material in Trade Talk with a few grains of salt.

So, while the cult has its ups and downs, these changes are already a part of established Gloranthan continuity. At least, as far as I was concerned.

Voriof
 
So far I think it holds together pretty well.

I am glad to see that someone decided to make Rune Magic a Second Age approach to magic, and note that there is a lot of folk magic about. It seems the most sensible approach to explaining this, which was otherwise quite different to what we know about 'common magic' from the First (from Greg's writing) and Third Age (from R2-3 and HeroQuest). Seeing as Robin was one of the primary author's of HeroQuest (basing it off Greg's unpublished writing), I am glad he understood and resolved the issue.

I am even hopeful that the Yelmalio cult is done right. This is a complicated piece of Gloranthan background. It is a long, fraught, story, but once Yelmalio was how the Orlanthi barbarians worshipped the sun. Greg realized that the Orlanthi needed a 'light' god who was not always an enemy or rival if they were not to be a darkness-oreinted culture. Hence the Orlanth got Elmal as their positive 'sun' god.

Of course the question then became 'who is the Yelmalio that appears in various supplements'.

The authoritative position is given by Greg Sez on the Issaries site: http://www.glorantha.com/greg/q-and-a.html.

Essentially Yelmalio is a name given to a mystical sun religion, founded in the First Age, popular among Pelorian Orlanthi in the 2nd but wiped out in the Dragonkill, and revived in Dragon Pass in the third.

So I think Glorantha the 2nd age got that bit right, which is a good sign.
 
Peter Metcalfe, who has Legendary Status in nitpicking and fact-checking, posted this on the Gloranthan Digest. He has picked up on the two glaring errors that I metioned elsewhere, but he has also picked up on a few more, some of which may be errors, some may be omissions, some may be misunderstandings.

Peter Metcalfe said:
The book at a hardbound 156 pages is rather
attractively put together. Much of the material is
a repetition of already existing material (world
views of the Orlanthi etc) but most of it
is new, making it worth having (even if my niggardly
instincts felt the hardback was unnecessary).

There are a few errors (such as the description of
Votankiland as "Balazar" - the hero of that name
didn't arrive in the area until a century later) and
some rather needless repetition of the old
Glorantha:CotHW material (Yuthuppa is more
famous for its star scribes than its fires and
its city god is far older than the dawn age).

FUN STUFF:

* Vadrus is alive (G:tSA p155). Yay!

* The Timinits

* The Death Kings (G:tSA p30).

STARTLING STUFF:

* Gilam D'Estau is described as being an still
living advisor to ShangHsa (G:tSA p35) rather
than his dead father incarnated within himself.

* The Haragalans are part of the God Learner
Empire and worship the Invisible Vith. Nothing
is said about the Valkarians. The Eastern
Seas Empire still exists but controls a
smaller part of Vithela than previously stated.

* Loskalm is still under the control of the God
Learners whereas it had revolted successfully
several decades before (855-865 ST). I could
understand it if the God Learners had invaded
again but no mention is made.

* The heresy of the Mari Dwarves is not
Vegetarianism but Missing Partism (Mostali
Shamanism in other words). Vegetarians
are not mentioned but probably are found
in the Elf Empire.

* Galanini in what is now Jonatela.

* The EWF is active in Pent!

* Where is Sir Ethilrist?

* No Print in Hendrieikiland! I knew the Larnsti
were good in hiding the secrets of their land
from the God Learners but I didn't realize they
were that good.

* The Utoni (those that worship the right and
left hands of the Invisible God) are secretly
Carmanians.

* The cult of Caladra and Aurelion has no assets
of note described in either Slontos or Jrustela.

* The Rathori have access to the White Bear.
I didn't think they had it that early.

ISSUES:

* The detail of treatment given to many places is
uneven. Some places are described in detail out
of proportion to their impact while others receive
only scant attention. Kethaela, a major battleground
between the EWF and the God Learners only
receives two pages while Kralorela recieves
despite it being far from the centres of power -
it's about as prominent on the world stage
as unmentioned Kalabar or the Elf Empire.

* The Zistorites are mentioned in many places
that a description of them (and their technology)
in the God Learner overview would have been
useful.

* Bija (the ancestor of the Yggites) has been
left out of the description of Fronela. Likewise
Eastpoint, the easternmost extent of the
God Learner Empire in Loskalm has been
omitted.

* The text isn't quite aligned with the map in
some places (the map of Brithos has several
unexplained placenames while the Vent is
described as Aurelion [sic] in the text and
Veskarthen in the map).

* Arolanit is described without any mention of
its Brithini inhabitants (although its Brithini
past is mentioned elsewhere in the text). Where
did the modern Brithini come from then?

* The Praxians and Agimori are given their overviews
despite them having little influence in the current age.
I think that the space devoted to them could have been
replaced with treatments of the Fonritans and the
Masloi as they are far more likely to interact with
foreigners.

* The Safelstran writeup pays scant attention to the
Arkati. For the guiding faith of the Autarchy and the
leading conspirators of the God Learner doom, I
would have expected them to be treated by a cross
between the Mafia and Al-Qaida. As it is, there's
only the Chaos Monks and nostalgiac drunkards
(the Sons of the Autarchy G:tSA p155).

* EWF Factions: Where are the Here-and-Nows or
the Forwards? Where for that matter is Isangdrang,
Alakoring or Ingolf?

* EWF "Pyramid Scheme" (G:TSA p27). For the EWF to
be a pyramid scheme, there has to be some element
of unsustainability built in that will eventually crash the
entire network. There isn't any and the result is that
the EWF is no more a pyramid scheme than medieval
europe. There is a pyramidial hierarchy but to describe this
as a scheme carries the connotation of the EWF being
fraudulent.

* The Elf overview only mentions Errinoru as a historical
event without any impact that his empire or philosophy
has on them. Errinoru's Empire is a major empire of the
age, carrying the same flaws as the God Learners, the
EWF or perhaps the Eastern Seas Empire.

--Peter Metcalfe
 
Peter Metcalfe, who has Legendary Status in nitpicking and fact-checking
What does Peter do for a living, he'ld make an excellent proof reader...

Saw his post to the digest this morning, have to agree "Sir Ethilrist" is a pretty big hero to miss out on, wonder if Mongoose have any plans for him, knights, and hell steeds. Could be fun playing a demon horse with servant rider.

Paul
 
I think his first couple Issues may be related to Mongooses planned releases. We know a whole book on the Clanking City is planned, so I assume the Zistorites will be covered in much more detail there.

Hopefully Kathela and Sir Ethilrist and the like will get their due in time.
 
* The Rathori have access to the White Bear.
I didn't think they had it that early.

The White Bear is confusing, as far as I recall, as a Spirit / Totem, the Rathori have always access to him on a magical / cult hero, basis, until the 3rd age, when Harrek slew him and became the personal incarnation of the White Bear. Of course if it is a fairly standard HeroQuest/Myth then there is every reason to assume Harrek was not the first to achieve it.
 
Exubae said:
Peter Metcalfe, who has Legendary Status in nitpicking and fact-checking
What does Peter do for a living, he'ld make an excellent proof reader...

Saw his post to the digest this morning, have to agree "Sir Ethilrist" is a pretty big hero to miss out on, wonder if Mongoose have any plans for him, knights, and hell steeds. Could be fun playing a demon horse with servant rider.

Paul

When I asked about Sir Egotist's status for the Church of the Atroxi writeup (which should be in Cults II), I was told that Sir Ethilrist was not really a going concern - yet. He becomes fairly kick-ass in a decade or so. He doesn't become an immortal until 1050. At the time, he may simply be another rebel who will be famous later.

Similarly, Alakoring is an unremarkable 7 year old somewhere in Ralios.

N.B. The surviving Atroxi are being exterminated by the more tolerant Malkioni sects for being utter bastards. :)

Voriof
 
* Vadrus is alive (G:tSA p155).
Does this mean that the God Learners constructed the Myth that spells the end of old 'Bad Attitude'?

Is there going to a second age source book for Pavis, I picked up the Green covered RQ2/3 write up of the city which was cool. It would be wicked to expand on it as a full source book, though I suppose its not exactly centre of the world at the moment, more of an outpost of the EWF.
 
Voriof said:
Similarly, Alakoring is an unremarkable 7 year old somewhere in Ralios.

There are some very well done hints about this in the Ralios PDF. What's left of the cult is in a desperately miserable state.
 
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