Gaim taken as allies
- Thread starter mollari_uk
- Start date
Locutus9956
Mongoose
@Sylvr: Dude, seriously try actually playing against them and then spout that 'your all rubbish, I could easily take them' rhetoric.
Before the first tourney I went to using 2nd Ed rules I was firmly in the 'Gaim look nasty on paper but no worse than anyone else, I'm sure theyre not THAT bad' camp and then I actually played against them and saw others do the same and can say without any hesitation that they are B R O K E N.
I do not use that word lightly, I'll call something a bit weak, or a slightly overpowered, or too luck dependant but since the first release of ACTA there hasnt yet been a fleet I would point at and call the whole damn lot broken. Until now.
Fighters: Ok so you have antifighter eh? Well good luck with that, as has already been noted, even heavily AF armed ships can only take down so many and the Gaim have so many MORE that they really dont care, and whats left will hit HARD. Oh and lets not forget that a reasonanble chunk of what you DO shoot down will most likely be back thanks to numerous fleet carriers. Oh and have a face full of breaching pods with bonuses to boarding rolls for good measure as well.
EMines: Ok they cant crit, big whoop. Have 80AD of AP Emines that dont care about any kind of defence traits whatsoever in the face on turn one before your even close to firing range. Outflanking? Who cares theyre all turreted so can all hit you no matter what! You cant even hide behind cover most of the time since they only have to be able to see a bit of space NEAR you to get you in the blast. It doesnt matter if you get crited or not if you take 30 to 40 points of damage outright! And lets not forget that the main point again is that you cant use your own fighters to help counter the swarms since they were most likely toasted in a swathe of emine death on turn 1.
In short, talk is cheap, try actually fighting them a few times (not just once mind you, luck plays a big part in any dice based game
) and then come back and say how we're all 'up in arms about absolutely nothing'
Gaim = Broken. Sorry but thats just an open and shut case as far as most people are concerned now, the real question is how best to fix them (as I and many others really do like the concept behind the fleet and the miniatures are stunning)
Before the first tourney I went to using 2nd Ed rules I was firmly in the 'Gaim look nasty on paper but no worse than anyone else, I'm sure theyre not THAT bad' camp and then I actually played against them and saw others do the same and can say without any hesitation that they are B R O K E N.
I do not use that word lightly, I'll call something a bit weak, or a slightly overpowered, or too luck dependant but since the first release of ACTA there hasnt yet been a fleet I would point at and call the whole damn lot broken. Until now.
Fighters: Ok so you have antifighter eh? Well good luck with that, as has already been noted, even heavily AF armed ships can only take down so many and the Gaim have so many MORE that they really dont care, and whats left will hit HARD. Oh and lets not forget that a reasonanble chunk of what you DO shoot down will most likely be back thanks to numerous fleet carriers. Oh and have a face full of breaching pods with bonuses to boarding rolls for good measure as well.
EMines: Ok they cant crit, big whoop. Have 80AD of AP Emines that dont care about any kind of defence traits whatsoever in the face on turn one before your even close to firing range. Outflanking? Who cares theyre all turreted so can all hit you no matter what! You cant even hide behind cover most of the time since they only have to be able to see a bit of space NEAR you to get you in the blast. It doesnt matter if you get crited or not if you take 30 to 40 points of damage outright! And lets not forget that the main point again is that you cant use your own fighters to help counter the swarms since they were most likely toasted in a swathe of emine death on turn 1.
In short, talk is cheap, try actually fighting them a few times (not just once mind you, luck plays a big part in any dice based game
) and then come back and say how we're all 'up in arms about absolutely nothing'Gaim = Broken. Sorry but thats just an open and shut case as far as most people are concerned now, the real question is how best to fix them (as I and many others really do like the concept behind the fleet and the miniatures are stunning)
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
I don't see the whole list as broken just the war carrier and skirmish level queen. But wait what are most lists built of these 2 ships. What a surprise. Added to the fact that they are stupidly advanced for a league fleet, their primary weapons ignore most defences and they have stupidly long ranged e mines.
They are just horrible my money is on a fleet of them winning this saturday coming. Even 8 raid queens would be horrible 64 ad of emine every turn, 96 fighters, and 16 pods.
They are just horrible my money is on a fleet of them winning this saturday coming. Even 8 raid queens would be horrible 64 ad of emine every turn, 96 fighters, and 16 pods.
SylvrDragon
Mongoose
@Locutus: Dude, assuming I have no experience as far as the Gaim are concerned is foolish. I have played multiple games as the Gaim so I have seen all too well what they are capable of.
AF is an easy way to deal with them. Oh, and don't use that "My ship has 2 AF and they have 6 suicdie fighters" garbage. Seriously, read the rule book junior. AF goes off against ANY and ALL fighters with0in 2". This means that if they attack your ship with 6 flights then you not only get the AF from the vessel being attack, but all the AF from any other vessels in range. Any player with half a brain can see that simple positioning can easily allow you to deal with these fighters as they come. Sure 200+ fighters is scary, to a weak gutted captain with no sense of tactics that is, but just because they have 200+ fighters doesn't mean that they can hit you with all of them. You can only get so many fighters onto an enemy base after all.
80AD of e-mines? Yea, so they have to concentrate everything in their fleet to destroy a ship or two. Last I checked most fleets can do that with far fewer ships. I'll admit that this is daunting, but it's not that bad. Seriously, have you looked at the Narn? They can't have quite as many e-mines, but with their e-mines being triple damage they don't need it and they have other weapon systems to back theirs up.
In short, talk is cheap, and the talk of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is even cheaper. Don't make assumptions. I Have experience with the Gaim and, unlike most everyone else in this thread, I actually sat down and figured out how to beat them instead and thus decided to not sit around and whine because I got beat up. They have weaknesses just like everyone else. I will admit that the Campaign use for them makes me stop and think, since you can use a combined force to get around their major weaknesses, but outside of that I don't see the big deal; oh, and sure taking no Queens offers an obvious advantage, but it also means that they won't be taking what are very obviously their best ships.
Gaim = not broken. The may not be balanced either, but I don't expect balance when I hear the name Mongoose Publishing.
If you want a balanced game you're purchasing from the wrong company. As sick as it makes me to say it, and trust me I mean this when I say it, Games Workshop has put out more balanced stuff than these guys. My local gaming group got fed up with the idiotic antics put out by Mongoose. 2nd edition was, on a whole, garbage and I feel I should get a refund for the money I wasted on it. We actually switched to Battlefleet Gothic. I'd forgotten just how well done the game was; though I remembered it being done quite well. Rules are largely simple, games run much faster than ACtA, and the overall fleet balance is very much balanced.
AF is an easy way to deal with them. Oh, and don't use that "My ship has 2 AF and they have 6 suicdie fighters" garbage. Seriously, read the rule book junior. AF goes off against ANY and ALL fighters with0in 2". This means that if they attack your ship with 6 flights then you not only get the AF from the vessel being attack, but all the AF from any other vessels in range. Any player with half a brain can see that simple positioning can easily allow you to deal with these fighters as they come. Sure 200+ fighters is scary, to a weak gutted captain with no sense of tactics that is, but just because they have 200+ fighters doesn't mean that they can hit you with all of them. You can only get so many fighters onto an enemy base after all.
80AD of e-mines? Yea, so they have to concentrate everything in their fleet to destroy a ship or two. Last I checked most fleets can do that with far fewer ships. I'll admit that this is daunting, but it's not that bad. Seriously, have you looked at the Narn? They can't have quite as many e-mines, but with their e-mines being triple damage they don't need it and they have other weapon systems to back theirs up.
In short, talk is cheap, and the talk of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is even cheaper. Don't make assumptions. I Have experience with the Gaim and, unlike most everyone else in this thread, I actually sat down and figured out how to beat them instead and thus decided to not sit around and whine because I got beat up. They have weaknesses just like everyone else. I will admit that the Campaign use for them makes me stop and think, since you can use a combined force to get around their major weaknesses, but outside of that I don't see the big deal; oh, and sure taking no Queens offers an obvious advantage, but it also means that they won't be taking what are very obviously their best ships.
Gaim = not broken. The may not be balanced either, but I don't expect balance when I hear the name Mongoose Publishing.
If you want a balanced game you're purchasing from the wrong company. As sick as it makes me to say it, and trust me I mean this when I say it, Games Workshop has put out more balanced stuff than these guys. My local gaming group got fed up with the idiotic antics put out by Mongoose. 2nd edition was, on a whole, garbage and I feel I should get a refund for the money I wasted on it. We actually switched to Battlefleet Gothic. I'd forgotten just how well done the game was; though I remembered it being done quite well. Rules are largely simple, games run much faster than ACtA, and the overall fleet balance is very much balanced.
SylvrDragon
Mongoose
No. 1 Bear said:
Edit:
Ah, a post with reason. I could go with certain ships being declared broken and the war carrier would be the first I'd point the finger at. Seriously, 24 flights +4 breaching pods from a raid?
I think the advanced nature of the Gaim is derived from their hive like nature. Can you imagine a group of several hundred geniuses that were genetically engineered to be superior in intellect and with the natural born ability to communicate instantly through their minds? Offers some serious possibilities.
Methos5000
Mongoose
Your assuming every fleet even has access to 2 AF per ship. Try playing them against a fleet with little to no AF and see how well they do.SylvrDragon said:
You just said to put your fleet close to over lap AF fire so guess what those emines are hitting a hell of a lot more then one ship. If you have any hull 4 or 5 ships you may as well say goodbye to them.SylvrDragon said:
Oh and Narn emines are Front Arc only. Those can be dealt with easier as you can eventually get behind them if your fast enough. How do you outflank a 40" turreted emine?
I have seen them in action too. I saw a 5 point Gaim raid fleet defeat a combined 10 Raid in Dilgar and Centauri. And it wasn't even a heavy queen fleet. How is that not Broken?SylvrDragon said:
90%+ success rate against both Drazi and ISA means Gaim = Broken. No fleet should be able to absolutely destroy another with such ease. The Vree are another fleet that will have problems. Great AF sure but low troops, no beams and lots of hull 4 and 5.SylvrDragon said:
Wrong. Try reading the book yourself, and try to post in a less arrogant manner.SylvrDragon said:
(Bold added by me)Page 28 said:
Given this, I suggest you re-define your entire outlook on the Gaim! Doing a mistake of this magnitude makes a MASSIVE difference!
As for the rest of your post... tl;dr
SylvrDragon
Mongoose
Burger said:
I see no error? You misunderstood my post. I was pointing out that AF isn't limited to ships being attacked. Any and all ships with fighters with-in 2" may make use of their AF. Note I said it goes off against any and all fighters with-in 2", I did not say that you rolled X dice against all. MAJOR difference. One statement declares the activation trigger of a trait, the other declares the effect of said trait.
And I don't see how a 5pt anything could beat a 10pt fleet unless the player(s) of the 10pt fleet were completely inept. No fleet can be that entirely broken.
SylvrDragon
Mongoose
I want to know what kind of logic drives a thought process such as this. There are other fleets that have at least a fleet or two that can guarantee a victory against them, and likewise there are other fleets that can guarantee a victory against at least two opponents and yet when anything is said against them it gets shot down. Why does this logic only apply to the Gaim? If a fleet being able to guarantee a victory against at least two opponents makes it broken then fine. But at least apply that wherever applicable and not just against a fleet you don't play. That's just bullshit.
I personally find the Drakh to be quite broken. Seriously, the fucking Mothership carries a full Armageddon points worth of skirmish ships inside it and it's a solid, though not awesome, Armageddon by its self. And yet if I were to declare it broken I'd likely be crucified! What kind of justice is that? And I've stood against the Shadows on more than one occasion and that's an uphill battle, yet they can almost guarantee a victory against Crusad EA or Narn to name a few. Is not beating two fleets with almost a guarantee of victory to start the logic for condemning the Gaim?
I personally find the Drakh to be quite broken. Seriously, the fucking Mothership carries a full Armageddon points worth of skirmish ships inside it and it's a solid, though not awesome, Armageddon by its self. And yet if I were to declare it broken I'd likely be crucified! What kind of justice is that? And I've stood against the Shadows on more than one occasion and that's an uphill battle, yet they can almost guarantee a victory against Crusad EA or Narn to name a few. Is not beating two fleets with almost a guarantee of victory to start the logic for condemning the Gaim?
Actually there have been lively debates on a number of races over time. Some of them got adjusted, but usually only when a really large effort was made that dominated discussion for a time. Some efforts have failed and after a long enough period folks stopped trying to get changes.
Ripple
Ripple
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I don't see how Shadows can auto-win against Crusade EA or Narn. Care to explain?
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
I am wondering that too.
Tzarevitch
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
SylvrDragon said:
Not that I want to join this argument, but the confusion is coming with your use of the words "any" and "all". AF does not work against "any and all" fighters in 2", it works against any in 2" (subject to the limiter of total dice available to allocate). "All" refers to a totality. "Any" refers to an unknown or variable quantity. The sentence refers to a number of fighters which can be engaged at a time subject to the variable limiter of number of available AF dice, thus the correct word should be "any" not "all".
Tzarevitch
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