Gaim-simple solution to reballance
- Thread starter TGT
- Start date
hmm, I have to say, despite the huge thread, which i avoided, I don't see gaim as unbalanced, their main weapon is a single damage non critting mine, I see it that it will spank ISA, and we all know how ISA players like a good whinge* but is it so very sick? given that on most tables in one to two turns you will be in range to hit them with your heavier weapons, you shouldn't be dead already! the fighters thing, ok, well, they get way to many, they are the problem as I see it, not the mines!
*this comment is based upon recent threads about other mines elsewhere, you can read my views in that thread if you so choose
*this comment is based upon recent threads about other mines elsewhere, you can read my views in that thread if you so choose
Da Boss said:If you get a chance and have the time ! its worth a read - its quite a civilised discussion of possible ways to beat them rather than anything else........more ideas than outright condemnation
I have since read the first page, it is indeed one of the most civil discussions over a "broken" fleet I have ever witnessed
Gaim are truely the fighter swarm fleet
keep them as such... but don't give them such high tech weapons as 40" emines
why if they've copied the Narn would they manage to get an extra 10"
of range on them and still fire every turn!
it was the one simple change i thought would make an effect and not require reams of ifs and butts
the only thing you'll be taking away from them is the ability to sit back and just shoot...which is annoying seeing they're a new race and it just bugs me that they've got the best over a lot of other races straight off the bat
keep them as such... but don't give them such high tech weapons as 40" emines
why if they've copied the Narn would they manage to get an extra 10"
of range on them and still fire every turn!
it was the one simple change i thought would make an effect and not require reams of ifs and butts
the only thing you'll be taking away from them is the ability to sit back and just shoot...which is annoying seeing they're a new race and it just bugs me that they've got the best over a lot of other races straight off the bat
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Actually I have to disagree Hiff, the mines ARE the problem, theyre not a big threat to ships like some poeple seem to think but lets take a good look at Gaim fighters. Yes theres lots of them but theyre not really all that good individually. The problem is that you can pretty much never stop them as to do so effectively you need to use your own fighter screen which frankly, doesnt work if said fighter screen gets emines to death on turn 1.....
Locutus9956 said:
well, i have to say, i suppose as a narn player, I have never worried about fighters! however I played one game alongside the gaim as my allies, and their fighter swarm (all 105 of them) didn't make a great impact on the game!! how 105 fighters don't make an impact I'll never know. Although yes, the gaim ships did sit back and shoot, the Fighters i guess, prevented the dilgar/shadow alliance closing in on them.
with launching now occuring in the endphase, fighters CAN be used to intercept klikitas, although getting the timing right could be tricky!
I guess it comes down to fleets again, we know that the gaim will spank ISA, EA on the otherhand should do ok, good AF scores, and interceptors against the fighters. I'd like to see some bat reps from gaim players to see how it looks then, I "may" review my opinion if i read more. I'll also try to get a few more games played myself against them with different fleets
Locutus9956 said:
Don't use your fighter screen to defeat his fighters - the Gaim have that covered.
You might find yourself employing tactics against the Gaim that you would never consider with other fleets - but they do work, and you won't need to 'tweak' your fleet to use them.
As for the tournament results, it is worth saying that the two Gaim players had something else in common. . . they were both fielded by very, very good players. Put another way, those players would likely have achieved the same or similar rankings in the tournament, no matter _what_ fleet they took (okay, maybe not Raiders
).I completely disagree with Matts post
One player I've never met and Kattaddar is routinely good top 5 but he'd certainly have had a more "enjoyable" and thoughtful game playing something other than Gaim
There really isn't a great deal for a player to do with Gaim
I had this conversation with both players and both said the games are theirs to loose.
The Gaim player I played (Scott) said he'd taken them to show how unstoppable at Raid they are ...well with 84 points which is near max
I can't see any arguements
so for future Gaim players...
Sit back hurt weak ships or all EM target a big threat
then get one big wave together to swamp..with breaching pods to get double VP's
THATS IT GAIM players
If you like fleets with a bit of thought behind them and thought in using them
STAY clear of Gaim!
now its up to us non Gaim players to try and see how we beat you at 5pt Raid!!!!
One player I've never met and Kattaddar is routinely good top 5 but he'd certainly have had a more "enjoyable" and thoughtful game playing something other than Gaim
There really isn't a great deal for a player to do with Gaim
I had this conversation with both players and both said the games are theirs to loose.
The Gaim player I played (Scott) said he'd taken them to show how unstoppable at Raid they are ...well with 84 points which is near max
I can't see any arguements
so for future Gaim players...
Sit back hurt weak ships or all EM target a big threat
then get one big wave together to swamp..with breaching pods to get double VP's
THATS IT GAIM players
If you like fleets with a bit of thought behind them and thought in using them
STAY clear of Gaim!
now its up to us non Gaim players to try and see how we beat you at 5pt Raid!!!!
TGT said:
That much is true - if you play to the Gaim's strength, of _course_ they will have an advantage. Deny them that, as you automatically do (now) with other fleets, and you will force them to try something else.
At the end of the day, second edition has not been out long and _no-one_ (except, perhaps, the playtesters) has played enough games yet to declare that any ship or any fleet is 'unbeatable'. . .
The other thread mentioned above has an ongoing discussion about beating them (or not ) however it is interesting that several playtesters are very concerned about them at this point.............althugh at least one other is not............
Scenarios played will play a huge part in deciding if you can beat the Gaim I think - for my standard 5 point raid fleet (which I would take against ANY other fleet) I will be as good as dead on turn 2 - hull 5 ships with 20 odd damage (including battle level at 26). If we start at a reaonsable distance - I may have a chance but not tried yet.
have fun!
) however it is interesting that several playtesters are very concerned about them at this point.............althugh at least one other is not............Scenarios played will play a huge part in deciding if you can beat the Gaim I think - for my standard 5 point raid fleet (which I would take against ANY other fleet) I will be as good as dead on turn 2 - hull 5 ships with 20 odd damage (including battle level at 26). If we start at a reaonsable distance - I may have a chance but not tried yet.
have fun!
Da Boss said:The other thread mentioned above has an ongoing discussion about beating them (or not
Scenarios played will play a huge part in deciding if you can beat the Gaim I think - for my standard 5 point raid fleet (which I would take against ANY other fleet) I will be as good as dead on turn 2 - hull 5 ships with 20 odd damage (including battle level at 26). If we start at a reaonsable distance - I may have a chance but not tried yet.
have fun!
whereas my standard 5 pint raid fleet would probably beat them, e-mines ahoy ;-)
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Well no offence Matt, but whilst the two Gaim players ARE were both good players I'd have to say the fact that pretty much all their games were 20-0 (in fact I think only 1 or 2 Gaim ships were lost ALL DAY between them) is still slightly concerning fair enough in my game against them I made some errors that could have made the difference between me taking some of them with me or not but realistically I dont see how most fleets at the tourney that I saw would actually WIN. I dont think Gaim are actualyl imbalanced for general play but I am leaning towards them being simply too strong in the standard 5pt raid format....
As to emines and fighter screening. Yes the gaim have that covered. I know that, thats my POINT. The issue is that some races (in particular Centauri and ISA) are almost 100% reliant on fighter screens to defend against enemy fighters. Escort ships are a possible alternative but if you take lots of them the gaim will just nuke them to pieces or you end up slowing your fleet to a crawl...
I'm not about to go out and point at the Gaim and start screaming 'nerf' but the tourney did cause me to raise an eyebrow at them a tad... One of of our players is starting a fleet and will be using them in our upcoming campaign though so really only time will tell....
I'm sure they CAN be beaten (even by ISA and Centauri) its just a case of how much you need to tailor your fleet to do so. To me its a shame though as some things just wont see use in tourneys with the Gaim around: For example:
After the (in my eyes good) changes to beam it seems that once again low hull ships are right back off the table as they just get masacred by emines.
Independant wings of fighters are free victory points while the Gaim are around so they'll probably vanish without a trace (ironically the only ones that might survive the emining from hell are the much debated shadow fighters (but theyll just get eaten by 20 billion kilkitas)
Carriers will see less use. Afterall why bother swapping a big gunship out for one that relies on fighters when theyll all get emined dead the turn after they launch?
And most depressingly: I daresay we'll start seeing people returning to 'beam teams' with hull 6 many interceptored gaim ships roaming the space lanes.
All of which, frankly are bad things in my eyes. As Ive said I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable and I do like the concept of a fighter swarm fleet but I just think the emines were a step too far.
As to emines and fighter screening. Yes the gaim have that covered. I know that, thats my POINT. The issue is that some races (in particular Centauri and ISA) are almost 100% reliant on fighter screens to defend against enemy fighters. Escort ships are a possible alternative but if you take lots of them the gaim will just nuke them to pieces or you end up slowing your fleet to a crawl...
I'm not about to go out and point at the Gaim and start screaming 'nerf' but the tourney did cause me to raise an eyebrow at them a tad... One of of our players is starting a fleet and will be using them in our upcoming campaign though so really only time will tell....
I'm sure they CAN be beaten (even by ISA and Centauri) its just a case of how much you need to tailor your fleet to do so. To me its a shame though as some things just wont see use in tourneys with the Gaim around: For example:
After the (in my eyes good) changes to beam it seems that once again low hull ships are right back off the table as they just get masacred by emines.
Independant wings of fighters are free victory points while the Gaim are around so they'll probably vanish without a trace (ironically the only ones that might survive the emining from hell are the much debated shadow fighters (but theyll just get eaten by 20 billion kilkitas)
Carriers will see less use. Afterall why bother swapping a big gunship out for one that relies on fighters when theyll all get emined dead the turn after they launch?
And most depressingly: I daresay we'll start seeing people returning to 'beam teams' with hull 6 many interceptored gaim ships roaming the space lanes.
All of which, frankly are bad things in my eyes. As Ive said I dont think the Gaim are unbeatable and I do like the concept of a fighter swarm fleet but I just think the emines were a step too far.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
EA are already a pretty much fighter-swarm fleet, though. I think the Gaim would be better off without the gimmicks - replace the e-mines with pulse cannons of some sort, perhaps purchased EA tech given the Gaim's fluff, and reduce the fighter numbers. Let them have the crewed missile option and the boarding bonus, but change them to a more conventional fleet. Maybe let them keep some e-mines but remove the dependance on them.
As I've said on the other thread Gaim CAN be beaten. My fleet has lost 40% of the time against people I taught the rules to 2 weeks ago.
ISA fleets WILL have problems, but they also have the largest selection of ships in the game (bluddy allies rules) and WS fighters that can survive e-mines and beat our fighters most of the time. Yes they will still be overwhelmed but that is the main Gaim fleet strength. White stars can outrun our fighters, wipe out the queen ships and bug out.
If rules changes are needed I'd suggest combining the 3+ 2AD e-mines shots to a single shot so it can only hit one mass of enemy fighters/ships at a time and give other carriers (well, they call them carriers :lol: ) a chance to deploy fighters, or make Gaim loose if they have no queen ships left.
ISA fleets WILL have problems, but they also have the largest selection of ships in the game (bluddy allies rules) and WS fighters that can survive e-mines and beat our fighters most of the time. Yes they will still be overwhelmed but that is the main Gaim fleet strength. White stars can outrun our fighters, wipe out the queen ships and bug out.
If rules changes are needed I'd suggest combining the 3+ 2AD e-mines shots to a single shot so it can only hit one mass of enemy fighters/ships at a time and give other carriers (well, they call them carriers :lol: ) a chance to deploy fighters, or make Gaim loose if they have no queen ships left.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
inq101 said:
That I like, if they have to have emines at least make them 1 single launcher and NOT TURRETED.
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