First reading: how does MgT 2 resolve old rules questions?

Colgrevance

Mongoose
I think MgT rules are aiming for a relatively rules light, abstract system, but nonetheless the combat rules that are there should be easy to understand and have a clear meaning. If there is room for diverging interpretation, it might lead to rules arguments at a time when players should instead focus on the action, with tension being high and dice flying.

As I had some issues with the first edition combat rules, a good first check for MgT 2 will be to check if my questions are all answered in the new version. So let’s see how the game fares now:

“A) Initiative:

1) When failing a Tactics check during initiative setup, I still add the (negative) effect to everyone in the same unit, correct?
2) Are there any effects of negative initiative values (e.g. because of failed Tactics checks or multiple reactions)?”


No changes here. I still think the rules as written imply that failed Tactics checks add a negative modifier to initiative and that initiative values, even negative ones, are valid, but a short clarification would be nice. Not a major complaint, though.

“3) In what order do combatants have to declare "hasten"?”

There’s nothing in the new rules either.

“4) The initiative bonus caused by a Leadership check only lasts for one round, correct?”

The Leadership bonus isn’t even described in the combat chapter anymore, though it is still mentioned in the skills chapter (p. 66). That definitely needs an update – can I still use Leadership during combat, and if yes, how does it work?

“5) Does the change to initiative caused by delaying likewise only last one round?”

There is no option do delay one’s action in the new edition. Though I don’t like this at all, at least there is no need for rules clarifications any more…

“6) What about Damage that changes my Dexterity score/DM - does this influence initiative at all?”

Still not entirely clear in the new rules; clarification would be welcome.

“B) Stance:

7) What is the movement rate of prone characters?”


That’s explicitly stated now, it is ¼ the usual movement rate.

“8) One cannot sprint while crouching, correct?”

Still not explicit in the new rules, but that’s only a minor nibble anyway. I would prefer some clarification on how sprinting works in the framework of the combat round, however.

“9) In my pocket rulebook, on p. 64 it is mentioned that all range attacks against prone characters except those made from Close or Personal range apply a -2 DM (implying Short range should be affected by the -2 DM), but according to the table on p. 61 the -2 DM should only apply for attacks at Medium or longer range... So what about Short range - is the DM -2 or 0?”

Interestingly, prone no longer gives any benefit to the target… I guess that can be handled by bane dice now, so I am ok with this.

“C) Multiple Actions:

10) Does the multiple action penalty (-2 DM) apply during combat turns? If yes, under what conditions - anytime I'm conducting a minor and significant action (or several minor actions) at the same time, e.g. do I incur the penalty for moving (minor action) + attacking (significant action)? If not, what's the difference to the example stated on p. 50 (piloting + attacking)?”


How multiple actions and the multiple action penalty work within the framework of the combat round is still not clear. I’d really like some clarification here, as this might have huge implications for the way combat works out (e.g. the possibility of multi-weapons attacks).

So, in summary, some issues are resolved, mostly because the corresponding rule has been omitted entirely, which sometimes leads to new questions. And there are still rules that (in my view) need clarification. I sincerely hope Mongoose will look into these issues, as I think they would make the combat rules easier to use in play.
 
I can start to answer some of the issues.

Tactics
"So long as they are not surprised, one Traveller (or combatant under the referee’s control) may make a Tactics check at the start of a combat. The Effect of this check is then applied to the Initiative of everyone on the same side." (p. 70).

If that turns out to be a negative Effect, it really does screw up the Initiative of everybody on the same side. That's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.

Leadership
"A Traveller may make a Leadership action in combat, which increases the Initiative of one ally within contact by the Effect of the Leadership check." (p. 67)

Hasten
"At the start of every combat round, a Traveller may choose to act more quickly, or hasten his actions." (p. 71)

That's at the start of each combat round. So everyone who wishes to hasten must make that declaration right at the start. Then Initiative is computed, along with the bonuses or penalties to Initiative given by Leadership and Tactics rolls made by others, augmentations and so on.

And I recommend you try and do a little mythbusting and see if you can sprint while crouching.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
“8) One cannot sprint while crouching, correct?”

Have you seen anything in real life do that?
I have it on good authority that some people once asked where, in an earlier version of Traveller, it said that unconscious people cannot take any actions.
 
alex_greene said:
I can start to answer some of the issues.

Tactics
"So long as they are not surprised, one Traveller (or combatant under the referee’s control) may make a Tactics check at the start of a combat. The Effect of this check is then applied to the Initiative of everyone on the same side." (p. 70).

If that turns out to be a negative Effect, it really does screw up the Initiative of everybody on the same side. That's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action.

Great, thanks!

alex_greene said:
Leadership
"A Traveller may make a Leadership action in combat, which increases the Initiative of one ally within contact by the Effect of the Leadership check." (p. 67)

Hm, do we have the same playtest document? In my Core Rulebook pdf, there is nothing like this on p. 67...

alex_greene said:
Hasten
"At the start of every combat round, a Traveller may choose to act more quickly, or hasten his actions." (p. 71)

That's at the start of each combat round. So everyone who wishes to hasten must make that declaration right at the start. Then Initiative is computed, along with the bonuses or penalties to Initiative given by Leadership and Tactics rolls made by others, augmentations and so on.

Yes, that's clear from the RAW. But in what order do you declare the intention to hasten? Is it clockwise round the table? In initiative order? Sometimes my decision might be influenced by other's actions, so this question is not moot. And initiative is resolved at the start of combat, not at the start of (each) round, so I do not think your answer works out.

alex_greene said:
And I recommend you try and do a little mythbusting and see if you can sprint while crouching.

Ok, this one's a bit cheesy. :) But if we take "sprint" to mean "go as fast as you can", I do not see why one should not be able to sprint while crouching. Maybe this is a language thing, me not being native speaker and all...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer some of those questions! I'd like to see a solution to the other, more important issues, too. I did not expect to get an answer for all these questions, but wanted to draw the publisher's attention to some problems that should be resolved in a new edition, in my opinion.
 
Colgrevance said:
Hm, do we have the same playtest document? In my Core Rulebook pdf, there is nothing like this on p. 67...

Try page 66. (Under the Leadership skill).
 
p. 70, The Combat Round

"Travellers take these actions in Initiative order, starting with those who rolled the highest Initiative check. If two or more Travellers are acting on the same Initiative order, the one with the highest DEX score will go first. If they are still tied, they will act simultaneously.

When it is a Traveller’s turn to act, he takes both his Minor and Significant Actions at the same time before play moves onto another Traveller.

Once every Traveller has had a chance to act the combat round is over, and a new combat round begins. Every Traveller retains their first Initiative score for every combat round."

"So long as they are not surprised, one Traveller (or combatant under the referee’s control) may make a Tactics check at the start of a combat. The Effect of this check is then applied to the Initiative of everyone on the same side." (p. 70).

p. 71:

"At the start of every combat round, a Traveller may choose to act more quickly, or hasten his actions. This increases his Initiative score by +2 for that combat round only but every check he makes suffers DM-1."

p. 70, The Combat Round

"Travellers take these actions in Initiative order"

Hastening alters Initiative order, but the decision to declare hastening must take place in the Initiative order established at the start of the combat, when each character gets their turn. In the next round, if they wish to hasten again, they will find their Initiative back to what it was at the start of combat again so they hasten when it's their turn to declare what they are doing.
 
alex_greene said:
p. 70, The Combat Round

"Travellers take these actions in Initiative order, starting with those who rolled the highest Initiative check. If two or more Travellers are acting on the same Initiative order, the one with the highest DEX score will go first. If they are still tied, they will act simultaneously.

When it is a Traveller’s turn to act, he takes both his Minor and Significant Actions at the same time before play moves onto another Traveller.

Once every Traveller has had a chance to act the combat round is over, and a new combat round begins. Every Traveller retains their first Initiative score for every combat round."

"So long as they are not surprised, one Traveller (or combatant under the referee’s control) may make a Tactics check at the start of a combat. The Effect of this check is then applied to the Initiative of everyone on the same side." (p. 70).

p. 71:

"At the start of every combat round, a Traveller may choose to act more quickly, or hasten his actions. This increases his Initiative score by +2 for that combat round only but every check he makes suffers DM-1."

p. 70, The Combat Round

"Travellers take these actions in Initiative order"

I bet they also choose to hasten in initiative order, too.

Ah, I misread what you were saying about initiative and turn order - my apologies.

But I stand by my argument that it's not clear from the rules in what order "hasten" is declared. And there might be situations when a player's decision might depend on an npc's (or the other way round), so this could definitely matter.
 
If there were any specific deviation from the rules, e.g. players wishing to hasten have to declare in alphabetical order by surname, it would probably have been mentioned under the Hasten rule. Otherwise, I'd say that if the rule under Initiative says everybody acts in Initiative order, that would go for hasten too.

That, and the rule that says everybody has to declare their actions at the start of the round - but that the Travellers have to act in Initiative order. As far as I can tell, it really makes no difference if each player is polled by the ref in Initiative order or clockwise from his left, because the ref does not start the clock on the combat round till everybody has declared anyway.
 
alex_greene said:
If there were any specific deviation from the rules, e.g. players wishing to hasten have to declare in alphabetical order by surname, it would probably have been mentioned under the Hasten rule. Otherwise, I'd say that if the rule under Initiative says everybody acts in Initiative order, that would go for hasten too.

That, and the rule that says everybody has to declare their actions at the start of the round - but that the Travellers have to act in Initiative order. As far as I can tell, it really makes no difference if each player is polled by the ref in Initiative order or clockwise from his left, because the ref does not start the clock on the combat round till everybody has declared anyway.

Initiative determines when a character will act, but declaring to "hasten" is not an action in this sense, and has to be declared before any actions are resolved anyway. The way the initiative rules are written, they may or may not apply to "hasten" declarations... it just isn't as clear as it could and should be.

This problem might not come up often, but imagine a pc with initiative 8 is fighting against a npc with initiative 9. Now "hasten" can change the order in which both characters act, and might therefore determine the winner (Traveller having a rather deadly combat system). Can the npc (ini 9) wait with his declaration to see how the pc (ini 8 ) will decide? Or does he have to declare first, which would mean he'd be sure of going first, but would impose a penalty to his rolls the other could avoid? I do think the order matters here, and I'd really like to see a rule for that explicitly written in the book.

We can argue how best to interpret the RAW and what makes more sense in play, but some additional words or a rewording would resolve the issue once and for all. And that's all I am asking for. 8)
 
Colgrevance said:
alex_greene said:
We can argue how best to interpret the RAW and what makes more sense in play, but some additional words or a rewording would resolve the issue once and for all. And that's all I am asking for. 8)
That's what these fora are for.
 
alex_greene said:
That, and the rule that says everybody has to declare their actions at the start of the round - but that the Travellers have to act in Initiative order. As far as I can tell, it really makes no difference if each player is polled by the ref in Initiative order or clockwise from his left, because the ref does not start the clock on the combat round till everybody has declared anyway.
I missed this. Where do the rules state everybody has to declare their actions at the start of the combat round and not during their turn in the round?
 
alex_greene said:
As far as I can tell, it really makes no difference if each player is polled by the ref in Initiative order or clockwise from his left, because the ref does not start the clock on the combat round till everybody has declared anyway.

It can if what a player ahead of you wants to do changes what you want to do.
 
If they have to declare at the same time as they act, and they all act in initiative order, then hastening makes no sense - if their Initiative score brings them to a point where they can suddenly act ahead of someone who has already acted, they cannot retroactively rewrite a sequence of events which has already taken place.

A's Effect is 6, B's is 5, C's is 4. B is the antagonist, shooting at A and C. C wishes to hasten; neither A nor B do.

A declares that he is shooting at B. A misses. B declares that he is shooting at C. He shoots C. C now declares that he wishes to hasten. Too late; he's already been hit by B and is now dead.

Everyone who wants to hasten has to declare at the start of each round, and they might as well declare in Initiative order as anything else. Once the ref has started the clock and the round has begun, nobody can declare that they wish to hasten. They can only act.

The period during the round is not the same as the moment at the start of the round -and declaring an attempt to hasten their actions is a task which can only be done at the start of the round.
 
alex_greene said:
If they have to declare at the same time as they act, and they all act in initiative order, then hastening makes no sense [..]

Declaring to "hasten" and declaring your actions for the current turn are two totally seperate things.

You have to declare "hasten" at the start of the combat round, that much is clear. My question concerns the order in which these declarations have to be made.

After the initiative order is settled (taking "hasten" declarations into account), everybody acts in initiative order and has to declare his/her actions at the time his/her turn comes up (that's what CosmicGamer is talking about, if I am not mistaken - because you stated that everyone has to declare actions at the start of the turn, too).

Nobody has argued for "hasten" to be declared during one's turn in the initiative order, so I just do not get your point here - sorry.
 
The reason this is relevant is that another character's choice to hasten can influence your choice to hasten. Some kind of mechanism (or at least clarification) is needed if a rigorous combat mechanic is sought, although this can be left open to the GM's interpretation since it is a relatively minor issue.
 
Back
Top