'Fiery Trial' First Module query

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Was looking over this module. When the pcs travel to T'Lad'tha from B5, it says the journey takes about 3 days. I assume B5 is in the Epsilon Eridani system. From there to T'Lad'tha is a minimum of 6 jumps following standard jump routes, but they manage this in 1 day!

I assume I am missing something basic here. Any help appreciated.
 
I've run that section and ended up assuming that the show greatly simplifies hyperspace (hs) travel: I/e the show flows much better if a traveller enters hs at one gate, travels through hs, and the next gate they pop out of is located at their destination. However, i believe it was implied that most jump routes are kind of indirect, a civilian traveler has to make many transfers, jumping in and out of hs and spending significant time travelling both in hs and normal space. This interpretation is supported later in the module: see page 66, Encounter Two: The Moon.

Also, the later jumps to Tirrith (TFS) can be more of a problem. I have yet to be able to find a time length for that trip in the text, but it seemed that it would take forever using the 3 days per jump rule from B5W. So, I ad lib-ed and came up with an average 9 days for civilian transit. This long jump time would be due to routing restrictions. In an emergency, and with all the relevant governments co-operating, it could probably be reduced to about 4 days.

BTW: If you are planning on running the module, I found some apparent discrepancies between dates given on the Universe Today handouts and those given for episodes -- and thus events -- in the main rule book. Savvy players will un-doubtedly find a way to capitalise on that unless you make corrections.

Later
JC
aka: Lord Caelan Ullarra
 
So, what is the answer? Why does the B5D20 rules book list 3 day travel times for minor routes, yet the adventure declares travel times in hours or single days for most cases. While I agree that the travel times to some places are lengthy, it's realisitic. But, that doesn't answer why the adventure doesn't follow the rules book travel times.
 
It appears that there was some change made to the travel time somewhere along the way. Encounter 3 begins with 'Seven days later, the Liberty's Fortune pops out of the jumpgate in the Levana system.' An eight day travel time is also mentioned elsewhere prior to this, rather than three, while is the value Anderson gives, at the same time suggesting that a week's leave should cover the trip.

This immediately presents another problem, however, as T'lad'tha is an enormous distance from Epsilon Eridani, a mere stone's throw, relatively speaking, from Llort space, so I can't see it taking another seven days to get there - even two seems rather a lot.

All I can conclude is that somewhere along the way it was decided to change the travel time, but that this didn't get altered all the way through the book. Either way, though, it doesn't seem to make an awful lot of sense.


There are one of two other things in this campaign that don't seem to make a vast amount of sense, especially the hyperspace travel. Take the trip to Quadrant 37 in Module 4. You're told it's a three-jump trip, which makes sense - Epsilon Eridani to Quadrant 14, Q14 to Q24 direct, which is actually not a standard jumproute, but possible within the rules, then Q24 to Q37. But what I don't understand is why the ship has to drop out of hyperspace at each location. In Q14, all that happens is that the ship exits the jumpgate, says hello to some Narns, and then jumps straight back in. If hyperspace travel is simply a case of following beacons, why the need to drop out and then head back in? You will, presumably, end up in exactly the same spot in hyperspace. So, why not just ride from one beacon to the next until arriving in Q37?

I don't know if anyone here has played it, but the demo of the B5: I've Found Her space sim (http://ifh.firstones.com) has just that interpretation of hyperspace. Beacons are connected by tachyon beams, and these correspond to jump routes to fly from Epsilon Eridani to Q14 you enter hyperspace, lock onto the beacon of your destination, and ride the tachyon beam all the way there. This also explains being 'lost' in hyperspace - if you stray too far from the tachyon beam and lose track of it, and are swept around a bit by hyperspace currents, then your chances of finding the beam again are virtually nil. The problem with this model is that navigating without following established jump routes is impossible, as you haven't a clue where you are. The main rulebook talks about using a grid of detectable beacons to track one's position, implying the ability to detect beacons from some way off. Though this then begs the question of how an Explorer class ship gets lost so easily...on the other hand, Shadow ships travel in hyperspace along very strange vectors, according to Warren Keffer, so perhaps that argument is invalid, if the Explorer unintentionally moved along such a vector, or something similar.

Either way, though, I don't see the need to drop out of hyperspace at each gate.


The only major quibbles I have about this campaign are about the hyperspace travel. There are one or two other odd things (what's a Drazi outpost doing in T'lad'tha, which is the other side of the Narn Regime from the Drazi Freehold?), but they're relatively minor. When I've been through the whole book, I'll probably shoot off an e-mail to the Mongoose guys, asking for clarification on a few things. Glad to know that there seems to be some behind-the-scenes work going on to get the missing map to us.


Oh, and hello, by the way :)
 
Well, as for the Exploer Class ships getting lost, I don't understand that at all. They should be jump capable, meaning they should jump out of Hyperspace and take an astrogation reading to orientate themselves. As far as the Shadow ships, Warren (?) said he thought it was following it's own beacon.

But, I agree with your other observations. Why are the Drazi in (almost) Llort space? Why would you drop out of hyperspace at all if you didn't need to? In my campaign the PC's do not have a jump capable ship, so I decided that there is a seperate jump gate for each jump route. So, from Epsilon Eridani to say Proxima, you have Sector 49 inbetween. If you don't have your own jump engine, you would have to stop at Sector 49, and travel to a second gate to bring you to Proxima. This allows for why a ship would have to stop, and how Raiders would get a chance to attack.

In a later modual in the adventure the PC's explore 'The Rim'...a mere 4 day travel time away. How is the unexplored Rim so close to B5?

Anyway, I know the Moongoose guys monitor this forum, just wish I could get them to answer.
 
Diafanus,

We do monitor the forum, but we do not not all have the answers. The author of the module is a VERY busy man, and given that I know what he's working on, he is not likely to have much free time (hah! like any of us do) to post anytime soon.

Still, I'll nudge him for you and see if I can get him to drop in. All right?

Tired,
-August
 
If a ship has its own jump drive and jumps into hyperspace how does it follow that the only way it could navigate is between fixed jump beacons (jump gates) as one of you described?

I see the beams from fixed jump beacons more as lighthouses with the strongest signal between the fixed jump beacons. Ships with jump drives can lock on to the weaker signals and follow them to the system that they are located in.

So let’s take a freighter which has to follow the established jump routes. It jumps from jump gate to jump gate, taking 3 days per jump. So, if it makes 3 jumps the total time is 9 days.

A jump drive ship should be able to jump from the same starting system and go directly to the destination in 3 days with only one jump.

Comments?

Sidney
 
Thanks for the interest in my query!

Thing is, the ship in question is not capable of generating its own jump point; it has to use existing gates.

Also, even funky ships like the Minbari can't just 'go' places; during the Earth-Minbari war, Earth slowed down the boneheads by turning off some of their beacons, forcing the bones to search for them.

I see each gate having a series of beacons connecting to other gates, each of which can be selectively turned off. A beacon is not a lighthouse; its more like a tight beam transmission, hence the fact a ship can lose its way.

I think Explorers work by reaching the limit of known space, then making lots of very small, very careful jumps til they find somewhere with good stuff, then they build a gate.
 
Explorers were described as leaving a jump gate and laying a "string" to where they exited hyperspace. I forget where I read this.

I think the whole argument goes back to JMS’ lack of a "real" technical basis in favor of telling a story.

A couple of issues that need to be considered.

1. We have ships capable of making their own jump points enters hyperspace far from a jump gate. How does they find where they wants to go if the only signals are from jump gate to jump gate?

2. How do raiders operate if freighters only move from jump gate to jump gate? It seems like the military could easily provide security at these choke points.

3. If it takes three days between jump gates as portrayed in the rules, how could fighters from a fixed base like B5 operate up to three jump gates away from their base?

IMHO

Some ships have to be able short cut the routes in order to operate as seen in the series.

Freighters have to travel for extended distances in normal space or else, they wouldn’t be vulnerable to raiders.

Comments?
 
Alright here's what I know about hyperspace (cobbled from various sources)...

Hyperspace travel from system to system is a lot easier with beacons linking gates together. Turn off the beacon and ships have to guess where that planet is. Unfortunately you can't link every gate to every other gate otherwise the beacons get fouled up.

The EA Explorer is designed with sensors good enough to find disturbances in hyperspace that can lead to a planet. Other races have similar scouts which is what the Minbari had to press into service to find more parts of the EA to wipe out.

As for ships traveling in real space on a trip, one of the things that was mentioned in the previous attempt at a B5 game says if a ship stays in hyperspace too long the crew starts being affected by hyperspace.
 
Hey Tired August,
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you guys were ignoring us, or had nothing but time on your hands. And I certainly would rather you were all working on new projects (as I am anxiously awaiting the next adventure campaign). But I also would like to see the information from sourcebook to sourcebook (or rule book, or adventure book) be consitant. That's all I'm getting at. Thanks, I would appreciate an answer from the author about it, that's all. Again, the question is: Why do the travel times in The Fiery Trial seem to be inconsistant with the Babylon 5 D20 rule book, where it lists travel times? Thanks again.
 
Guest said:
So the chance to ever see the missing map is quite nil? :(

For our nameless guest. And for those of you that don't speak fluent slingbld-ese, the map has been posted.

See thread:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2623&highlight=

or go straight to the downloads area:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/babylon5/downloads.php

or indeed even forsooth straight to the file
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/fierytrialmapextra.jpg

Hope this helps

LBH
 
slingbld said:
LBH Speaks Slingbld-ese quite fluently 8)

Slingbld~
Master of my own tongue (I should hope so!!)

Thanks for the compliment slingbld. :oops:

To quote one of my favourite comedians, The League Against Tedium:

"I speak 99 languages . . . . and am the inventor of 98!"

LBH
 
Hey thanks to slingbld and lastbesthope for the cue! I was not aware it had been posted. And of course thanks to all the hard-working Mongoose folks. 8)
 
There is a B5 flight sim, called something like "I've found her" Anyway, the opening mission is you being checked out in a starfury. One of the check outs is using a jump gate. It defines the way hyperspace travel works really well.

Basicly at a gate, once in hyperspace, your scanners can pick up the signals from all the jumpgates. Because they are a tight "beam" sent from gate to gate. Once you pick your beam and lock on to it you follow it to the next gate or becon. Once you get a certain distance away from the jumpgate, you can't pick up the other "beam signals" hence you have to follow the becon / gate you are on. However once you get close to the arriving jumpgate you pick up signals from all the other jumpgates. Thus you could stay in hyperspace and head off to the next becon / gate, you wouldn't have to leave hyperspace. Of course if it is a 3 day trip, standard practice may be to pick up any additional supplies, or top off the fuel tanks while you have the chance.

Imagine a giant spider web, and you can only travel on the strand. If the strand doesn't go where you want you have to follow another one until you find a link to the strand you want. Thus you would have to make several jumps to get to a distant place.

Also another thing to consider, even though there is no top speed in space, there is a need to slow down and manuver. Some ships can slow faster than others. hence they would be able to travel through hyperspace faster. Other ships don't have the handling or the engines, hence they move slowly through hyperspace. Another point that is brought up in the game. You are zooming along at 200,000 mph pick up a signal, and can't stop to investigate cause it takes ya 15 minutes just to slow down to a stop.

some thoughts,
psyjack
 
psyclonejack said:
There is a B5 flight sim,

<SNIP>

Basicly at a gate, once in hyperspace, your scanners can pick up the signals from all the jumpgates. Because they are a tight "beam" sent from gate to gate. Once you pick your beam and lock on to it you follow

<SNIP>

Thus you could stay in hyperspace and head off to the next becon / gate, you wouldn't have to leave hyperspace. Of course if it is a 3 day trip, standard practice may be to pick up any additional supplies, or top off the fuel tanks while you have the chance.

Imagine a giant spider web, and you can only travel on the strand. If the strand doesn't go where you want you have to follow another one until you find a link to the strand you want. Thus you would have to make several jumps to get to a distant place.

Also another thing to consider, even though there is no top speed in space, there is a need to slow down and manuver. Some ships can slow

<SNIP>

You are zooming along at 200,000 mph pick up a signal, and can't stop to investigate cause it takes ya 15 minutes just to slow down to a stop.

some thoughts,
psyjack

I prefer to think of them as light houses but the beam is directed at a fixed jump gate and can be picked up if your sensors are good enough.

That's how I'm running things in my games.

Your description does make sense but I don't see how raiders operate if that's how things work. The only time they could hit a ship in in normal space as they go from a jump gate to a planet. Which does make some sense.

There are two limiting factors on speed, acceleration and decelleration. If you're going too fast you will overshoot your destination.

Of course, in normal space there is a upper limit of the speed of light which may also apply in hyperspace.

Sidney
 
El Cid said:
Of course, in normal space there is a upper limit of the speed of light which may also apply in hyperspace.

Sidney

True there is the light speed barrier in normal space, that's what Hyperspace is for, FTL travel. But then if Hyperspace allows FTL travel, what is the speed of light in Hyperspace? It may be faster. The speed of light, as with sound, changes depending on the medium it is travelling through (If I remember my science correctly). The most oft quoted value for c which is as near as makes little difference 3*10^8 m/s is the speed of light in a vacuum, it travels slower through other materials, say perspex.

So could the spped of light in Hyperspace be greater than the above value for c, thus why FTL travel is capable in Hyperspace.

In true essay style exam fashion:

Discuss . . .

:?

LBH
(Who used to work for the European Space Agency once upon a time)
 
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